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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: riches in Christ

Quote:
the spirit of this giving though is what we need to check.


More yet…. We need to check is our true desire. What kind of blessings are we hoping for?
Even a good desire can easily become idolatrous – ex a fruitful ministry, saved souls, etc… We can want those things to help give us the feeling that we are successful. But what if God doesn’t give us that? Does that necessarily mean that we are on God’s second-rate list? You see the subtle danger? We may point our fingers at the obvious health and wealthers, but subtly be harbouring impure motives.

When I preach in churches I am acutely aware that parishioners know little of what they could have in Christ – (regardless of their denomination). Christ has commissioned us to preach THE GOSPEL not a behaviour modification formula. So my aim is to tell others about Christ and what we have in him.

The book of Ephesians was mentioned earlier. That book tells about an awesome prosperity available to us: the spiritual riches in Christ. Really our blessing is Christ himself.

Here’s a suggestion: Go through Ephesians and highlight all words related to Christ. The book is loaded. In fact Chapter six, the spiritual armor of God, is really about Christ – what he has given us in order to stand firm.

God has indeed promised us prosperity:–

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

What more could we want?
Do we crave Christ above all? Is he sufficient?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/8/28 9:33Profile









 Re: Something MISSING!


Hi Jeff :-D - Your question has me grinning.

My first answer is [i][b]flesh[/i][/b].


Btw, did you have something in mind....?

If so, please don't be afraid to share whatever.



One other thing comes to mind, and that is that when Jacob set out to get the blessings intended for Esau by his natural birth, he had no concept of God keeping His word to him, [i]without his help[/i], even though his father had prayed God to end Rebekah's infertility, and He had. (In other words, God is one who performs what we cannot.)

Or, that in desiring to receive them from God, he was both answering something God had placed within him (which was beyond his control), and by outworking those desires in the way he did, he was laying himself open to be sifted by circumstances which came along with the very blessings - to the point where it would be difficult to tell which had led to which.


In other words, I don't think I understood what an expensive prayer I was praying when I offered my life to God for him to use, but, like Jacob, I knew that [u]He[/u] was my both my first and my last resort, [i]in the circumstance[/i] in which I did it.

Did that make sense?

 2007/8/28 10:14
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

-Quote-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jef wrote
What do you and Jacob have in common?


If asked the same question I would say.
The kind of faith that is void of fear like Jacob and Moses had. Faith to lay down our carnal lives in the spiritual desert of the world and cross over into the rest that is in Christ Jesus our first love. Sheep do not try to escape but they are known to wander away and backsliding Christians sojourning temporarily in the world are subject to the same attacks of the spirit of carnality as those that live daily in anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication and lying as we all participated in before we put on the new man.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/8/28 10:54Profile









 Re: Something MISSING!


Re: Something's Missing...boy is it...


Greetings, bro IRONMAN,

You raise an interesting text, which sparks me into fierce fighting mode for the gospel, and possibly from an unfamiliar angle... because I haven't heard preached either, what I'm about to say...

First, though, I have never been in a church where the prosperity gospel is held and regularly preached (Praise God!) so I'm not in a position to judge your first point from my own experience. But I have [i]met[/i] Christians who believe in it.

The first thing that strikes me about the verses you chose, is to whom the Lord is speaking - 'saith the LORD of hosts unto you, [u]O priests[/u], [b]that despise my name[/b]' and that He tags them with the criticism that they 'despise' His name. OUCH!

We see the same thing in Luke's account of Jesus' arrest, where, by the time He arrives, the whole council is gathered and later it is [i]one of these men[/i] who strikes Him. I remember the shock I felt when I realised that this was a member of the elite religious leadership of Israel behaving like a lout.

From other things I've heard about power-hungry people, I know it is often true that there is, literally, a gang of big strong men who go and intimidate (turn up late at night and threaten) those who speak out for truth not knowing (at the time) that this might befall them.

What is often more scary in these situations is not the threats, but that they are being made by men who have respectable dayjobs (like, that among them are local ministers, lawyers, businessmen!), who are known as pillars of the community, who (the intimidated one feels) would be believed over and above him (the one speaking up for [u]righteousness[/u]).

Therefore, that [i]these[/i] men would offer polluted sacrifices (which necessarily cost them less), is not a surprise.

These men have strayed so far from God, that they think (if He exists at all), that He doesn't know what they do.

And, they don't know why (because they have lost all sense of their sinfulness, [i]and[/i] of His [i]holiness[/i]) they should bother to offer anything unblemished. It's the same attitude as those to whom Peter refers with this rebuttal: 'The Lord is not [b]slack concerning his promise[/b], as some men count slackness...'

Boy, you got me started here....! ;-)


contd.

 2007/8/28 11:10









 Re: Something MISSING!


to IRONMAN contd.


Quote:
the robbery of God in terms of us not giving Him the Honour Due Him leads to us not doing right by Him [u]in tithing[/u] or otherwise. [u]The failure to tithe is a symptom of this failiure to have God as the only focus[/u].

Brother, I agree that a failure to give whole-heartedly to God could be interpreted through the observation of one who is not tithing. But, I do not believe one needs to tithe, in order to give whole-heartedly to God and to have placed one's whole live, wealth and future into His hands whole-heartedly.

In fact, I would suggest to you there is a snare in thinking that by tithing, one is now off the hook. (I'm not suggesting you think this.) That now, what one has left, belongs to oneself to spend on anything one can still afford. Under the New Covenant, this can only be described as hypocrisy.

Under the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter struck on a New Covenant truth which we do well to take on board, when he said 'Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [i]part[/i] of the price of the land? 4 [b]Whiles it remained[/b], [u]was it not thine own[/u]? [b]and after it was sold[/b], [u]was it not in thine own power[/u]? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? [u]thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God[/u].


Notice, Peter didn't say, [i]Ananias, you know that if you'd only given a tenth, you'd have been in the clear with God.[/i] Peter is stating a [u]different way[/u] of managing our property, our capital and our resources.

Now, please don't (only) take from this that I'm saying it's ok to [i]not[/i] give 'money' to the Lord, [u]as a way of life[/u] (although I am also saying that!) because I believe it is good to have all our money available to the Lord for whatever He calls upon it. I do [u]not[/u] believe a Christian is [u]entitled[/u] to a moderately comfortable house\home\regular shelter, although many of us enjoy this. We should be deeply grateful to the Lord if we do (have such a place to lay our heads), as it is not in the manifesto of provisions He promises for this earth. He [u]promises[/u] a home in heaven. Is that where our affections are settled?

Quote:
are we sowing seed out of greed or to tend to someone's need?

Great question! The paradoxical answer is that we will reserve more treasure in heaven for ourselves if we do the latter; Spurgeon calls it 'lending' to God, or, 'investing' in our heavenly 'bank'.


There is just one other thing I'd like to comment on the words from Malachi you quote.

Under the Old Covenant, the animals chosen for offerings and sacrifices had to fit God's precise specifications, or they were unacceptable.

Under the New Covenant, what do we offer? We offer ourselves and all that we have and are.

So, do we think we can keep our blemishes and God won't notice?

Do we think we can keep our sicknesses of soul and spirit, and in laying down such unhealthy sacrifices, it is possible to [i]please[/i] Him... after Jesus has been here to show us many kinds of deliverance and healing by which we may become [i]whole[/i] sacrifices - which [i]do[/i] please Him?

You know, there is more in the New Testament about this than I have ever heard [i]preached[/i]. Here is a tiny sample:

Matthew 21
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them,It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but [u]ye[/u] have [u]made[/u] it [b]a den of thieves[/b].
14 [color=006699]And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.[/color]


Hebrews 12
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [i]us[/i], and we gave [i]them[/i] reverence: [u]shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and [b]live[/b][/u]?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened [i]us[/i] after their own pleasure; but he for [i]our[/i] profit, [u]that [i]we[/i] might be [b]partakers of his holiness[/b][/u].
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 [color=006699]And [u]make[/u] straight paths for your feet, lest that which is [u]lame[/u] be turned out of the way; [b]but let it [u]rather[/u] be healed[/b][/color].



Bro, do you catch my drift?

 2007/8/28 11:13









 Re: Something MISSING!


Diane stated

'God has indeed promised us prosperity:– '

and shared from 2 Peter 1

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.



Diane, you asked:

What more could we want?


I think, the answer to the other two questions is in the answer to the first, but unless we begin to understand the revelation of God Himself, through what we can know of the way Jesus conducted Himself and what He taught, I don't think we begin either to find Him sufficient, or, to crave His abiding presence.

 2007/8/28 11:26
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re: Something MISSING!

Sis wrote:

Quote:
Neil had finally posted 'Kingdom of Priests' on fireonthealtar, and I was listening to it through the second time. At the point where Joseph falls on his dead father and kisses him, suddenly (this is the vision) I was there in Egypt AND simultaneously I was at the place my mother's family come from in Lewis, Scotland.




Jacob's life was impacted greatly by dreams and visions. I was listening to Daniel Kenaston teach about the reason for visions and dreams...

The hebrew word of dream comes from the root Chalam...which means...

1) to dream

a) (Qal)

1) to dream (ordinary)

2) to dream (prophetic)

3) to dream (of false prophets)

b) (Hiphil) to dream

2) to be healthy, be strong

a) (Qal) to be healthy

b) (Hiphil) to restore to health

God gives visions and dreams to restore or to make healthy those who were once lost according to the ways of this world that is under the dominion of Satan.

.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,


Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

You like Jacob, are given vision and dreams which restore to health that which was once dead..

Just a thought Sis

Love
In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/8/28 23:19Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Tithing

sis D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
Brother, I agree that a failure to give whole-heartedly to God could be interpreted through the observation of one who is not tithing. But, I do not believe one needs to tithe, in order to give whole-heartedly to God and to have placed one's whole live, wealth and future into His hands whole-heartedly.



i don't believe one needs to tithe either and i agree with your assessment of how we are to give to God, that being EVERYTHING. i was speaking in terms of those among us to whom God has asked a specific amount be it 10% or otherwise for a period, i call that a tithe. For example, God asked my wife and i for 10% of what we made for the last 3 months. that for all intents and purposes is a tithe.We so did and now we are at the end of that 3 months. We gave in obedience and now there are some benefits which are coming our way as a result. Of course there are monies coming in but he real Gold is the Peace which we found in trusting God wholly with everything we had.


Quote:
In fact, I would suggest to you there is a snare in thinking that by tithing, one is now off the hook. (I'm not suggesting you think this.) That now, what one has left, belongs to oneself to spend on anything one can still afford. Under the New Covenant, this can only be described as hypocrisy.



indeed i agree totally here. we see this playing out in Israel and even among ourselves. We do and say all the right things yet with rot in our hearts and thinking all the while we are off the hook when God isn't mocked.

Quote:
Now, please don't (only) take from this that I'm saying it's ok to not give 'money' to the Lord, as a way of life (although I am also saying that!) because I believe it is good to have all our money available to the Lord for whatever He calls upon it. I do not believe a Christian is entitled to a moderately comfortable house\home\regular shelter, although many of us enjoy this. We should be deeply grateful to the Lord if we do (have such a place to lay our heads), as it is not in the manifesto of provisions He promises for this earth. He promises a home in heaven. Is that where our affections are settled?



now you know if i told God on the last day i didn't give because sis D said not to, He'd say back to me that doesn't fly! :-P i see your point and i agree with you. we gave as our Lord moved us to, sometimes a little bit, sometimes more and sometimes not at all, however recently, He had us give 10% to various people/causes as He led us to and we did so in obedience. sure we are not entitled to living well, but if we do have an abundance it is for one thing, the Glory of God in the benefitting of His Body by the abundance.indeed we thank God for the little we have every day and know He supplies our needs. i think of Elijah at Cherith, God sent ravens to feed him...Ravens are small birds and can't carry much so the provisions for Elijah were meagre, but sufficient.


Quote:
Great question! The paradoxical answer is that we will reserve more treasure in heaven for ourselves if we do the latter; Spurgeon calls it 'lending' to God, or, 'investing' in our heavenly 'bank'




Quote:
Under the Old Covenant, the animals chosen for offerings and sacrifices had to fit God's precise specifications, or they were unacceptable.



ok

Quote:
Under the New Covenant, what do we offer? We offer ourselves and all that we have and are.



to me there is no difference in what must be offered in the sense that it is all to God's Specifications, in the Old Covenant it is animals, in the new it is our being.anything less is unacceptable before God because He gave us all of Himself first.

i catch your drift sis, we're on the same page!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.



_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/29 0:32Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 oh no...i done messed around and set sis D off...

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN

you know sis D something funny happened when i responded to your second post. i read the title and wondered "so where is the first part?" after i was done responding, i found it... :-P


Quote:
You raise an interesting text, which sparks me into fierce fighting mode for the gospel, and possibly from an unfamiliar angle... because I haven't heard preached either, what I'm about to say...



you know, i believe the word of God isn't bits and pieces we can cherry pick, it's not a buffet where one can choose this and reject that.

now i haven't been to a church where prosperity is preached, but i have met people from such churches or with that mindset (as you have) and seen quite a bit of it on t.v.

Quote:
The first thing that strikes me about the verses you chose, is to whom the Lord is speaking - 'saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name' and that He tags them with the criticism that they 'despise' His name. OUCH!



AMEN...those who minister before God to the people...i guess the ones who teach, the pastors are indicted here. They are said to "despise His Name." OUCH alright...you see this is the dishonoring of God going on here, to dishonour His Name is to despise it. Now there may be some who teach foolish things out of ignorance, that is another matter, however to despise God's Name implies that they know what they ought to do and don't...Some of these prosperity preachers know full well what they ought to teach but they don't, too much money could be lost doing so. i discussed this with a brother some time ago who quoted Deuteronomy about God giving ability to gain wealth. ok, fine i have no qualms with that at all because it is true, on the other hand, we have the letter to Laodicea and Christ's admonition to us about the camel and the eye of the needle and storing riches in Heaven...He didn't seem to want to get that bit...This cherry-picking grieves our Lord to no end and what happens is we miss things and our view gets warped.

Quote:
We see the same thing in Luke's account of Jesus' arrest, where, by the time He arrives, the whole council is gathered and later it is one of these men who strikes Him. I remember the shock I felt when I realised that this was a member of the elite religious leadership of Israel behaving like a lout.



i believe there may be a feeling of invincibility, infallibility or something going on here that would cause a man to do so wickedly, something which the enemy can latch onto. There is a somberness which comes with the office of pastor which i feel is lacking, Paul said that not many of us should want to teach because these will be judged more harshly...things like that get missed when we cherry-pick.

Quote:
From other things I've heard about power-hungry people, I know it is often true that there is, literally, a gang of big strong men who go and intimidate (turn up late at night and threaten) those who speak out for truth not knowing (at the time) that this might befall them.



yes indeed.

Quote:
What is often more scary in these situations is not the threats, but that they are being made by men who have respectable dayjobs (like, that among them are local ministers, lawyers, businessmen!), who are known as pillars of the community, who (the intimidated one feels) would be believed over and above him (the one speaking up for righteousness).



yes indeed, however i bless God for the testimony over the years of those saints whom God has held up even unto death for the cause of Righteousness. Paul said we are persecuted, but not forgotten. if indeed God has raised up a man/woman to stand up to these, such a one will not be intimidated because God isn't intimidated.

Quote:
Therefore, that these men would offer polluted sacrifices (which necessarily cost them less), is not a surprise.



of course!

Quote:
These men have strayed so far from God, that they think (if He exists at all), that He doesn't know what they do.



and Paul said that those who didn't want to retain thoughts of God were given over to reprobate mind, if what you mentioned above isn't reprobocity, i don't know what is. that saddens me deeply sis... :-(

Quote:
And, they don't know why (because they have lost all sense of their sinfulness, and of His holiness) they should bother to offer anything unblemished. It's the same attitude as those to whom Peter refers with this rebuttal: 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness...



AMEN.

you know, when i read the O.T. through the lens of the New Covenant, that is leaving behind whatever isn't relevent to us the New Covenant and having it distilled so that i can see the udnerlying Truth which is aplicable now, it is amazing. We don't offer animal sacrifices for sin in the New Covenant, but we sacrifice ourselves and various other things and when we don't do so with a Godly attitude, it is the same as offering a blemished sacrifice would have been in the O.T. days.

May God give us Grace to offer acceptable Sacrifices before Him.AMEN

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/29 1:30Profile









 Re: Something MISSING!


Dear Jeff,

Thank you for the simplicity of your last post. I found it refreshing and edifying, and I will be sharing those definitions of dreams with others. It's a revelation to learn there are recognised types of dream, differentiated in that way!

I'm not sure you can attribute my susceptibility to dreams and visions to Jacob, though my mother frequently mentioned 'the second sight' which so many from her parents' part of the world were gifted with, (or burdened by, depending on how you look at it).

You raise an interesting point, if you are suggesting these things happen only to those of Israel's descent or faith. I don't think scripture supports this, and Cornelius is a prime example.

Also I believe that every person who comes into the world is fitted with an inner God-recognition faculty, no matter what they like to call it, and no matter how it is dammed up by sin or Satan, I believe it can be freed for action.

Further, dreams and visions are promised to those baptised in the Holy Spirit, although it may be true to say that some people may never have either of them. I believe God knows how to gift us according to aspects of our natural pasts - either to bring into fuller use, or create anew from nothing - in lives which have been laid down to Him completely. And I believe there can be a growth in number of identifyable spiritual 'talents' but, that these can never be possessed by the individual as their own. They always are God's graces upon His deeper work of saving us properly from within.

One thing I believe passionately, is that it is possible to completely sure that God has spoken to us. Just as it is possible to be unsure whether what we [i]think[/i] may have been God, really was.

I wonder whether we forget to identify the context when comparing these two experiences, as often our unsureness is just that... that we have not given the time and space to hearing from Him which we should. And the times we are [i]so[/i] sure, are either because God has taken the initiative in answering a very specific prayer, or, we had been praying long and hard before His voice came. (Iow, we had properly prepared ourselves to hear from Him.)


Just some thoughts, bro. :-)

 2007/8/29 9:05





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