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 Something MISSING!


Dearly beloved brothers and sisters,

In recent weeks I have come to understand more fully, how I have been preserved by ruthlessly strict biblical teaching, from certain pitfalls with which Christians may struggle, especially where laws of the land have a biblical basis.

The two (pitfalls) which have come to my attention in particular, are the 'prosperity gospel' and a general confusion about where the Old Testament ends and the New Testament begins.... and I'm not talking about turning the page from Malachi to Matthew.... :-D

In fact, I was horrified recently to learn how much [u]OT[/u] scripture is used to [i]support[/i] the 'prosperity gospel' - some of it is even reversed in meaning from its original context - and yet unchallenged by modern believers. How so?

Beloved, this is a very simple way for the enemy to entangle us or keep us in bondage, and it is a tool to prevent the renewing of our minds.

Now please don't worry that I've had a sheltered Christian existence. The enemy (with God's permission) saw to it that my blind spots were capitalised upon, so that without God's help there was no way forward to victory. You'll noticed that being [i]slow on the uptake[/i] is one of them.... ;-) But, I've survived in Him, and have heaved a great deal of old baggage overboard of necessity, in the process. Musn't we all?


That was a preamble.


Now for 'Something MISSING!'

I need to share a vision with you. It's short. Then, I'll share how I reacted initially, and how I had to respond to that reaction, to retain my spiritual integrity before God. I make no apologies. This is a bit of my testimony.


Neil had finally posted 'Kingdom of Priests' on fireonthealtar, and I was listening to it through the second time. At the point where Joseph falls on his dead father and kisses him, suddenly (this is the vision) I was there in Egypt AND [i]simultaneously[/i] I was at the place my mother's family come from in Lewis, Scotland.

Immediately, I knew the Lord was revealing to me that I am descended from Jacob. (So much could be said at this point I'm going to say nothing.)

And this was, of course, mind-boggling to one brought up as a gentile, although my mother often talked in a way which I now might interpret as sympathetic to her being of 'Jewish' descent.


Now I don't know what some of you might be making of this revelation that I might be descended from Jacob, but I'm sure some of you will, mistakenly, be making something of it. Stop, please, right now. It's worthless.


Very quickly.... and I mean, within a few hours of taking in what the Lord had shown me in the vision... I was thrown into understanding how an Israelite might suppose that his natural birth was of some worth to God. I understood the pride (believe it or not!) that comes from thinking I was physically related to Jesus. :-o Even though my ancestors killed Him anyway.

It was awful. All I could think (and still do), was 'Why would I [i][b]want[/i][/b] to be Jewish?' I couldn't ditch those thoughts fast enough, to regain my inner equilibrium with God.

But, and this was worth (probably the reason for) that insight from God.... because I could, for the first time, understand [i]why[/i] Paul wrote what he did on [i]many[/i] occasions about resisting to 'keep' (as in store within one's heart and live off) the law, and rather [i]be kept by[/i] the love of God (and much more).

Also, those references to genealogies tending to strife and division, came alive, and if I had never understood before what being born from above is supposed to do for us, I understood it now, and am eternally grateful that it is so.


[color=0000CC]So, the [u]thing[/u] which I see MISSING in many of our deliberations, is a lack of understanding that the gospel does to deliver a [i]natural[/i] Jew into God's hand, to be born from above.

Being [i]outwardly[/i] Jewish is just a huge burden, which [u]must be[/u] ditched in Christ, for an [u]inner circumcision[/u] which renders the outer [i]DEAD[/i]. [/color]


So, dearly beloved, please step back from some of your objectivity of scripture, and ask yourself when the New Covenant began to bite?

How did the apostles know from which Old Testament scriptures to preach the gospel?

And what was\is the gospel?


If you were a new Jewish believer, what were you believing now, instead of what you believed before?


The answers to all of these questions are in the New Testament, but, understandably, the apostles had their own learning curve, as the Holy Spirit led them into more and more truth. What truth?

 2007/8/25 5:00









 Re: Something MISSING!


This has been playing on my mind, as it's open to misinterpretation.

Quote:
It's worthless.

I don't mean that [i]people[/i] of Israelite descent are worthless.

And, I [i]appreciate[/i] it was necessary for Jesus to have a human 'family'.

In a way, [i]that's[/i] what Abraham was chosen to head up ...

EDIT: before there were any 'Jews' around... ;-)

 2007/8/27 5:45
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Something MISSING!

Reply to Dorcas
A great thread, thanks

A great post may have been over looked purposely because it’s the root of divisions in a lot of Churches. A division that can not be resolved until faith in God replaces money in churches and is discussed and excepted by the ones in charge who are the beneficiaries of the present system . Members live by faith and the money changers and elites live outside the invisible realm in darkness and are dependant upon money and privilege to provide their necessities. We must become a house of prayer. Prayer that is predicated on God’s power.


Dorcas wrote:
In fact, I was horrified recently to learn how much OT scripture is used to support the 'prosperity gospel' - some of it is even reversed in meaning from its original context - and yet unchallenged by modern believers. How so?

Beloved, this is a very simple way for the enemy to entangle us or keep us in bondage, and it is a tool to prevent the renewing of our minds. end quote.



You will be blessed in the Heaven places for your stand but you will be scourged in the visible realm.
They will ask how do we pay the bills and our response is that we will not enslave our families to your possessions.

Is this reply in the same context as your thread?
Respectfully Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/8/27 7:51Profile









 Re: Something MISSING!


rowdy2 asked

Quote:
Is this reply in the same context as your thread?

Absolutely! Your reply is right on the ... um ... one of the tracks I hoped we might tread together, in the interest of the unity of the body.


I've always liked the way Paul uses this phrase somewhat tentatively [i]endeavouring to keep the unity of the body in the bond of peace[/i] (Eph 4), as it gently informs us that it may take some effort on our part to come onto the common ground of truth. This necessarily implies we must leave the ground we [i]were[/i] on.

 2007/8/27 8:40
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Reply to Dorcas
I have been blessed and edified by your posts and look forward to reading more.
Quote by Dorcas
I've always liked the way Paul uses this phrase somewhat tentatively endeavoring to keep the unity of the body in the bond of peace (Eph 4), as it gently informs us that it may take some effort on our part to come onto the common ground of truth. This necessarily implies we must leave the ground we were on. End quote

Agreed, I can be wrong and you could have the truth. Sometimes the premises of threads cause us all to sound like Job’s friends. But answers must be prayed about and excepted if they fit the word of God but not necessarily men's wisdom of traditional religious understanding.
You may be advanced beyond me in understanding but if I reach the point you are presently standing, I must still be standing by faith on the Word of God.

Sometimes I feel compelled to post and I can’t explain how the post blends with the subject being discussed. But I need the help of the One that guides me so I don’t want to resist.

Peace beyond our understanding is rest. Sight beyond the horizon is vision. Where mans knowledge ends God’s word begins. As disciples of Christ and as building stones we have to fight the spiritual warfare to break the bonds of the world and become complete captives (prisoners) to the One that bought us and is drawing us and establishing us, The Son of David who is worthy of building The Father a house to dwell in. We collectively are The Body of Christ and the dwelling place and The House of The Living God that precedes time and stands undivided as it has and will through out eternity stand in harmony and in the bonds of peace that bind us in righteousness by faith. We have all that we can know about God in us and we must seek with-in this magnificent body guided by the Head Christ Jesus to edify the Body and manifest our Lord to the lost world


Ephesians 4

1. I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God sent His Son for us.

1 Corinthians 15
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/8/27 11:54Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
In fact, I was horrified recently to learn how much OT scripture is used to support the 'prosperity gospel' -


You shouldn’t be surprised, Dorcas! After all, the Old Covenant conforms to that thinking far more than the New Covenant. THe Old Covenant is a conditional covenant: if... then. If I am good, if I do so and so…….. then God will bless me, ie material blessings, health, etc. If WE are good, then God will bless our land. The Old Covenant blessings centered around land and included the religious system. Those are both treasured possessions today, both threatened by apostasy. But neither is guaranteed in the New Covenant. If our purpose for obedience or getting others to obey God is to move God to restore our national security and religious freedom, we are living in the Old Covenant. It leads to works-driven theology. This is not what Christ died for.

The New Covenant promises nothing about temporal blessings or land promises, or prosperity. Yet, land/nationhood/material security etc is very dear to many-a heart. Many believe that still today, if they obey God, then God should bless them – and secure our land. I see Christians from America trapped in that (and, no doubt from other blessed nations). And why not! They (we) have a lovely land that has blessed them with tremendous prosperity.

I fear that much of the revival longings that we see today are rooted in the wrong covenant. They are rooted in the hope that if people repent, then God will restore the blessings of the land.

Can we accept the fact that revival may be birthed in death of hopes, losses of all that has been valuable to us? Dispersion, loss of national identity, loss of heritage … ?

Can we be satisfied with the spiritual blessings promised in the New Covenant?
What are they?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/8/27 13:17Profile









 Re: Something MISSING!


Eddie, thank you for your kind words, and your point about the word of God being our benchmark.

And this... :-)

Quote:
The Son of David who is worthy of building The Father a house to dwell in.

I like it... Amen.
Quote:
We collectively are The Body of Christ and the dwelling place and The House of The Living God

I agree with this too, and believe it is a simple to grasp.

Someone posted an excellent exerpt about the temple stretching up through the generations of believers... I'm going to try to find it.

 2007/8/27 20:21









 Re: Something MISSING!


Greetings Diane,

Thank you for your observations.

Quote:
Many believe that still today, if they obey God, then God should bless them – and secure our land.

I'm interested to hear this, as it lines up with an exerpt which Ormly posted, from DeVern Fromke's 'The Ultimate Intention', by which exerpt I was slightly taken aback.

Here's a clip of it:

'As I listen the problem becomes evident. Their very words reveal it. Without realizing the truth, these people are far more concerned for themselves than for Him. They are far more alive to what they want God to do for them, than what they might become unto Him, if they could, they would use God and the work of the Cross for their own ends. Here is the source of their trouble!
The Cross is not the threshold to selfish attainment, but a terminal to selfishness. Many would use it for themselves, but God has designed that it should bring men wholly unto Him.

Even among those who continually attend deeper life conferences and retreats, we find many who have fallen victim of this vicious snare. After years and years of reckoning on more knowledge and deeper teaching, they are still camping around their old self-center— getting all God has for me, possessing all my possessions appropriating all my inheritance in Christ.

Oh! May God strip the veneer and shatter every attempt at using the Cross, instead of dying on the Cross. Hidden behind most begging and pleading for God to give victory is the secret concern for ourselves—not Himself. God will not condone this self centeredness. How many years I taught the truths of Romans six and counseled with those who were in defeat and bondage before I found this key—In His death I am to become “alive unto God!” As long as a believer’s primary concern is to get victory or deliverance for himself; subtlety it means that he continues to live unto self.'


Quote:
What are they?

Slowly, I'm realising that after we have remembered we are to be raised from the dead as Christ was, after we die, and enjoy eternity with Him, the 'blessing' which most challenges and attracts me right now, is 'the kingdom of God is within you'. Partly because this ties in with 'He is a Jew who is one inwardly... whose praise is not of man but of God' and partly because I'm beginning to understand it's not about 'authority', or 'power in the Holy Spirit', or His 'gifts' immediately, but about my meat being to do His will, now that I know Him.

 2007/8/27 21:07
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
Immediately, I knew the Lord was revealing to me that I am descended from Jacob. (So much could be said at this point I'm going to say nothing.)



What do you and Jacob have in common?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/8/27 23:17Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Something's Missing...boy is it...

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you know i find it interesting the scripture quoted by the prosperity pundits in Malachi about robbing God by witholding tithes...i have yet to hear any one of them quote this one from Malachi 1:

[b]6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? 7 Ye offer F2 polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. [/b]

the robbery of God in terms of us not giving Him the Honour Due Him leads to us not doing right by Him in tithing or otherwise. The failure to tithe is a symptom of this failiure to have God as the only focus. Clearly there is a benefit to giving to God, a benefit to sowing seed coz there is a harvest and so on, no question. the spirit of this giving though is what we need to check. are we sowing seed out of greed or to tend to someone's need?...clearly the focus of the prosperity people is more for their own gain that his Glory... :-(

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/27 23:27Profile





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