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 Re:

Quote:
This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh



Ormly, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here about Adam entering into the way of the Cross????? Are you talking about the First Adam? Was he even offered the cross? The only reason MAN is participating in the Cross is because of Adam's fall. But to suggest there was a way of the Cross before sin even entered is not even taught in scripture. I believe there was a Tree of Life in the Garden, and the reason they were escorted out and it was closed for business was to keep them from eating that tree AFTER they sinned. The first man Adam was FULLY HUMAN, made of the dust of the earth. God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living SOUL. The Last man Adam, Jesus Christ, became a life giving Spirit...according to 1st Corinthians 15.

Adam and Eve were NEVER offered co-heir ship with Jesus Christ, and were never referred to as sons of God.

It is the CHURCH that was foreordained and predestined BEFORE the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve Sinned. THE CHURCH is Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh, and this too was NEVER offered to Adam and Eve.

You see the Church is called out to be HIGHER than the Angels...read Hebrews 1 & 2. Angels are higher than man. But in Christ His Church -Now co- heirs, and joint heirs and adopted Children are HIGHER than the angels, or we are predestined to be, at the redemption of our bodies, that will be Glorified together with Christ,...another thing Adam and Eve never were and never would have been even if they never sinned.....they would never be glorified together with Christ.

The Church, is the Mystery that was kept Secret, now revealed to us who are members of His body.

During the 1000 year reign, even those entering in will not be as the CHURCH, *bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh*. No one who is flesh and blood entering into the 1000 year Kingdom Reign will be able to say, "I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me". They will certainly SEE the Glory of the Lord, but WE ARE Glorified with the Lord and He is Glorified in His Saints.

Love in Christ
Katy-did





 2007/8/25 11:35









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Quote:
This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh



Ormly, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here about Adam entering into the way of the Cross????? Are you talking about the First Adam? Was he even offered the cross? The only reason MAN is participating in the Cross is because of Adam's fall. But to suggest there was a way of the Cross before sin even entered is not even taught in scripture. I believe there was a Tree of Life in the Garden, and the reason they were escorted out and it was closed for business was to keep them from eating that tree AFTER they sinned. The first man Adam was FULLY HUMAN, made of the dust of the earth. God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living SOUL. The Last man Adam, Jesus Christ, became a life giving Spirit...according to 1st Corinthians 15.

Adam and Eve were NEVER offered co-heir ship with Jesus Christ, and were never referred to as sons of God.

It is the CHURCH that was foreordained and predestined BEFORE the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve Sinned. THE CHURCH is Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh, and this too was NEVER offered to Adam and Eve.

You see the Church is called out to be HIGHER than the Angels...read Hebrews 1 & 2. Angels are higher than man. But in Christ His Church -Now co- heirs, and joint heirs and adopted Children are HIGHER than the angels, or we are predestined to be, at the redemption of our bodies, that will be Glorified together with Christ,...another thing Adam and Eve never were and never would have been even if they never sinned.....they would never be glorified together with Christ.

The Church, is the Mystery that was kept Secret, now revealed to us who are members of His body.

During the 1000 year reign, even those entering in will not be as the CHURCH, *bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh*. No one who is flesh and blood entering into the 1000 year Kingdom Reign will be able to say, "I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me". They will certainly SEE the Glory of the Lord, but WE ARE Glorified with the Lord and He is Glorified in His Saints.

Love in Christ
Katy-did



You will just have to study it out as I have presented it from my findings. If you can agree, that would be nice but not necessary. I will stand by them until I see something that makes more sense; that more readily connects the dots as to the "why" of it all.

You might want re-read all that I offered up before telling me I'm wrong..

 2007/8/25 11:50









 Re:

Ormly, I have read All that you have posted and all the other writers you have placed here. What I think I'm seeing, and please tell e if I am wrong, is that you believe we individually go to the cross. But let's clarify that. Our identifiction with Christ at Calvary is not separate from Jesus Himself. [[b]And our identification with Christ in death and resurrection life IS that the body of SIN may be destroyed. Again, not necessary for Adam and Eve b/f the fall. (Added/Edited[/b] SO we can do nothing of ourselves in crucifying ourselves, . We are crucified WITH Christ. [[b]and in your proposal of Adam and Eve applying a Cross before they sinned, you are implying we are saved through suffering, not through Christ's redemptive work on the Cross FOR US. This is altogether ANOTHER Gospel, not in scripture.( Added/ Edited) [/b]Now, how was Adam and Eve to accomplish that if Christ had not yet come and first died on the Cross for our SIN....which is the only reason He did go the the Cross...To take OUR sin...He paid the penalty of God's WRATH toward sin at Calvary. So, if before Adam and Eve Sinned you are presenting a Cross where one was not yet needed, what exactly are you teaching?

I know Hindu also believe in this suffering until you come to some perfection or Narvina state. And it would appear you are along those same lines of thought.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham...MAN, became LOWER than the Angels in doing so, to bring many SONS into GLORY. Do you understand that? GLORY, seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESES. We, His Church, have a much HIGHER status and Calling then the first Adam and Eve.

This is all in Scripture...Hebrews 1&2 for starters. And not to mention Ephesians is all about Paul wanting us to KNOW the hope of *OUR* Calling...the Calling out of the Church, His Body, not individuals but His Body.

We at the time of our salvation, are raised up together with him and baptized into His Body.

Ormly, I don't know where you have those findings, but please use scripture, not commentaries, and use scripture that has to do with the Church, not the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel Acts 1:6&7, or those entering into the Kingdom Age, human Jews and Gentiles.

You see, Paul clearly taught in Ephesians His Body is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one NEW MAN. So the Church, who is being prepared to reign and rule with Christ during this time will be the New Man, Glorified together with Christ, while those entering into the Kingdom will still be flesh and blood upon the earth. I must put this dowwn because it all goes together. Satan will be bound during that time of 1000 years. After he is loosed, there will be another war, called Gog and MaGog according to Revelation. Even with Christ ruling during tht time, man (not all) will still rebel. At the end will be the Judgement of Nations, and the separating of sheep and goats. Now, WE are not the Sheep and Goats here, and God needs no angels to look and see if we are saved or not, as WE, His Body, His Church will also be judging, even the angels.

It's because of not understanding and properly separating the end times, we confuse all sort of scripture that we thing pertain to the Church when it doesn't. This is misleading and those not looking UP (for our redemption draweth nigh) for WE will meet the Lord in the Clouds,(Thess) and it will be the *Faithful, Chosen and Called *(The Church) who return with the Lord when He executes Judgement at the second coming of His earthly reign. Rev 17.

Without inderstanding this properly,Christians are going to be deceived. Well, the Faithful, Chosen and Called will not.8-)

Love in Christ
Katy-did


 2007/8/25 12:15









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I have read All that you have posted and all the other writers you have placed here. What I think I'm seeing, and please tell e if I am wrong, is that you believe we individually go to the cross. But let's clarify that. Our identifiction with Christ at Calvary is not separate from Jesus Himself. [[b]And our identification with Christ in death and resurrection life IS that the body of SIN may be destroyed. Again, not necessary for Adam and Eve b/f the fall. (Added/Edited[/b] SO we can do nothing of ourselves in crucifying ourselves, . We are crucified WITH Christ. [[b]and in your proposal of Adam and Eve applying a Cross before they sinned, you are implying we are saved through suffering, not through Christ's redemptive work on the Cross FOR US. This is altogether ANOTHER Gospel, not in scripture.( Added/ Edited) [/b]Now, how was Adam and Eve to accomplish that if Christ had not yet come and first died on the Cross for our SIN....which is the only reason He did go the the Cross...To take OUR sin...He paid the penalty of God's WRATH toward sin at Calvary. So, if before Adam and Eve Sinned you are presenting a Cross where one was not yet needed, what exactly are you teaching?

I know Hindu also believe in this suffering until you come to some perfection or Narvina state. And it would appear you are along those same lines of thought.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham...MAN, became LOWER than the Angels in doing so, to bring many SONS into GLORY. Do you understand that? GLORY, seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESES. We, His Church, have a much HIGHER status and Calling then the first Adam and Eve.

This is all in Scripture...Hebrews 1&2 for starters. And not to mention Ephesians is all about Paul wanting us to KNOW the hope of *OUR* Calling...the Calling out of the Church, His Body, not individuals but His Body.

We at the time of our salvation, are raised up together with him and baptized into His Body.

Ormly, I don't know where you have those findings, but please use scripture, not commentaries, and use scripture that has to do with the Church, not the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel Acts 1:6&7, or those entering into the Kingdom Age, human Jews and Gentiles.

You see, Paul clearly taught in Ephesians His Body is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one NEW MAN. So the Church, who is being prepared to reign and rule with Christ during this time will be the New Man, Glorified together with Christ, while those entering into the Kingdom will still be flesh and blood upon the earth. I must put this dowwn because it all goes together. Satan will be bound during that time of 1000 years. After he is loosed, there will be another war, called Gog and MaGog according to Revelation. Even with Christ ruling during tht time, man (not all) will still rebel. At the end will be the Judgement of Nations, and the separating of sheep and goats. Now, WE are not the Sheep and Goats here, and God needs no angels to look and see if we are saved or not, as WE, His Body, His Church will also be judging, even the angels.

It's because of not understanding and properly separating the end times, we confuse all sort of scripture that we thing pertain to the Church when it doesn't. This is misleading and those not looking UP (for our redemption draweth nigh) for WE will meet the Lord in the Clouds,(Thess) and it will be the *Faithful, Chosen and Called *(The Church) who return with the Lord when He executes Judgement at the second coming of His earthly reign. Rev 17.

Without inderstanding this properly,Christians are going to be deceived. Well, the Faithful, Chosen and Called will not.8-)

Love in Christ
Katy-did



You stick to your version of the gospel and I will stick to mine, ok? ... ner the twain shall meet.

 2007/8/25 13:09









 Re:

Ormly said:

Quote:
This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh




So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods.

But let me ask you this,

When Jesus, fully God and fully man was on earth, there was a reason He humbled himself and left, Glory to do so. According to John 17, Jesus prayed to teh Father, Glorify me the way I was before the foundation of the world. So Jesus is now in all His Glory, sits at the Right hand of God the Father.

Jesus did not come to establish another race of fully God fully human beings. Nor was that his intention to begin with.

Jesus Christ IS our very life, and without His death and resurrection we would have no life...eternal life. Jesus said I AM the resurrection.


You comment earlier on another post said, when Christ went to the grave all humanity went with him.

In Adam ALL died, so no need to have Jesus bring all of humanity in the grave with him, and what, die again? How dead can dead be. In Adam all died period. Jesus Came to bring life to the already dead humanity through Adam's sin.

Jesus took upon him our sin at the Cross. The wages of sin IS death.

When we trust in Christ we at that time identify with Him in death and resurrection life. Paul said, BEING MADE conformable to his death that I may attain to the resurrection. To be made conformable to His death(Or as Philippians 2 says, ("keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who made himself of no reputation, and became obedient unto death") Now that would not be necessary if all were taken into the grave with Him to begin with, and now we, according to you, are trying to suffer our way out into some kind of resurrection of perfection. This is a total flip flop from the Gospel Paul preached.

We are justified by His Blood and SAVED by His life, His risen Life...walla, just like that, in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye. We are Born Again the moment we place our trust in Christ, and are NOW raised up with Him a New Creation In Christ. We are saved by GRACE through Faith, it is a gift, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ormly, we are as far as the east is from the west, and Never will this twain meet In Christ when He calls His Saints Home.

I know you will still be working on your suffering salvation, that may place you somewhere in Narnia in the imagination of your mind, and I am oh so sad that you are soooooo unwilling to listen to God's word and apply it appropriately.

You know, those who worship the beast have no rest day or night, but those In Christ have entered into HIS REST. Yours sounds oh so unrestful, oh so, not even sure you are going to be ready or make it kind of gospel. What if you died today, have you arrived at your suffering status quo?


When will you know you have become fully God/Fully man...like Jesus was when He came to earth? You know there was only ONE SEED, and that SEED is Jesus Christ. Mary was overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit, making Jesus Fully God/Fully Man. But what you seem to be saying is we are as Mary was, overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit, and instead of giving birth to God..Jesus Christ...we become God in the Flesh? How does this happen? If we are to be as Jesus was in the Flesh, we would have to be conceived the way Jesus was in the Flesh. But there was only ONE SEED (Galatians) to begin with ( and not many seeds, but that SEED is Christ) ...so where did all these other seeds you are talking about in forming a race of fully Gods /fully mans come from?

I'll tell you where it came from...The Mormon Teaching, as they believe much as you do.

Ormly, I know many Southern Baptist Churches are affiliated with the Mormons. Some even taught or still teach at Baylor. Someone has totally pointed you in a wrong direction and co-mingled the Gospel with some ungodly doctrine coming from various sorts. Please oh please confront those demons of lies, and stop passing these lies off on to others.


I *Now* live on the resurrection side of the Cross, and so glad I do. Thank you Lord Jesus I am strengthened, established and settled on that matter.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/25 17:19









 Re:

This is one of the most Vitally important chapters in Scripture, Notice in verses 19-22 is our standing In Christ, we enter a New and Living way, through tne veil, that is to say His flesh. We are crucified with Christ, raised up with Him...the New and Living Way, and Stand IN CHRIST as we come Boldly to the Throne to the Father Himself.



Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



Please, don't draw back into perdition and false doctrines. Stay ONLY in the WORD of God, Every Word of HIS and no one elses. Those who belong to Christ LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD. Don't forget!

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/25 17:39









 Re:

"Please, don't draw back into perdition and false doctrines. Stay ONLY in the WORD of God, Every Word of HIS and no one elses. Those who belong to Christ LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD. Don't forget!

Love in Christ
Katy-did"

We won't Katy-did, we won't.

 2007/8/25 17:41
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:


"So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods."

I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

When I am changed I will be just like Him.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/25 18:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:


So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods.

I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

When I am changed I will be just like Him.

In Christ: Phillip



If you say it never existed means you have never understood it as the principle; the means by which God would bring many son'e into Glory.

 2007/8/25 20:35
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Orm,

I did not write this: So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods.

I wrote this: I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

When I am changed I will be just like Him.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/26 0:42Profile





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