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JesusisGod2
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 14
Lockport IL

 The Trinity--what are your views

I have my own views on the subject of the Godhead being 3 in 1 and will share them, but i would first like to get the boards view. :-D :-?

This is a much debated topic and I am interested in your insight.


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kevin

 2003/7/29 10:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The Trinity--what are your views

How can the creature search out the Creator?
How shall the finite describe the Infinite?
How can Man know God?
The answer to these questions is more simple than might at first appear. God has chosen to reveal Himself. Mankind does not need to remain in ignorance of God. Finite creatures can know the unknowable. There are many things that man can know about God, because God wants man to know them. If God had remained silent, man would have remained ignorant. God has revealed Himself in nature, although that is now a very imperfect revelation. God has revealed himself through the Holy Scriptures, although even that is a very incomplete revelation. God has fully revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, whom the Scriptures describe as…
“being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.”

The ancient Hebrews had been taught for centuries that…
“the LORD our God is One God.”
To this unchangeable truth Jesus added another…
“I and My Father are One.”
The Holy Spirit speaking through the apostle John confirms this brighter shining of truth, when He teaches something which unaided man could never have discovered. Introducing Jesus Christ as the Word, who became flesh and lodged among us, He reveals…
“In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.”
The Word who was with God and was God, bore eloquent testimony to the deity of the Holy Spirit when He declared that those who defamed the Holy Spirit, were committing blasphemy.

And yet none of this changes the first unchangeable truth; “the LORD our God is One God.”
Neither do they explain the mystery. God is One God, but Three distinguishable Persons, each of whom is completely God. This unfathomable mystery, the theologians call Trinity. A mystery which can never be explained, only illustrated. The creeds which came later from the councils of the early churches were not attempts to define God but rather attempts to exclude error.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal. The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the World. The Son sent the Spirit to make that salvation a personal reality to men and women.

Man could know none of these things unless God had revealed them. Before this amazing self-revelation of the Eternal, Infinite, Triune God we can only wonder and worship.
(Hebrews 1:3; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 10:30; John 1:1)

His/Yours
Ron B


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Ron Bailey

 2003/7/29 10:58Profile
JesusisGod2
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 14
Lockport IL

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your response, and I totally agree with your insight.

The reason I had inquired others views on this particular doctrine is that I have been attending an Apostolic Church the past several months and they believe in the "Oneness" doctrine. Of which I never really heard of except on another BB site
of which I was charged with because I had mentioned that I was baptised in the Name of Jesus.

The church I attend is really on fire for Jesus, although there are a few things I disagree with, one is the speaking in tongues always accompanies the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which has already been addressed here (and quite admireably I might add) and the other is "Oneness" Doctrine.

I see the 3 Persons displayed through out the bible such as "let [b]Us[/b] make man in [b]Our[/b] image" I have heard this explained away as He was speaking of the angels, but whats wrong with that way of thinking is the angels are not made in the image of God, we are.

Another place it shows more than one person in the Godhead is Dan 7:13-14

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold [b]one like the Son of man[/b] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to [b]the Ancient Of Days[/b], and they brought [b]Him[/b] before [b]Him.[/b]
and there was [b]given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,[/b] that all people, nations, and languages [b]should serve Him, His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."[/b]

Now this passage of scripture to me anyway clearly shows the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit being humble as He is draws no attention to Himself.

Another place it shows more than one person is John 1:1 " .... The Word was with God and the Word was God" and again in Acts 8:55

"But he being full of the [b]Holy Spirit[/b], looked up steadfastly into heaven [b]and saw[/b]the glory of God,[b]and Jesus standing on the right hand of God"[/b]

This to me clearly shows all 3 persons of the Godhead as seperate but one the same way that Christ says in John 17:11

" That they may be [b]one as We are."[/b]

The body of Christ is made up of many individuals and yet we are one in Christ, the same is said of a husband and wife -- the two shall become one. even the name Eloheim is plural which allows for but doesnt teach the trinity per say.

What I do like about the Pentecostal church is thier belief that all the gifts are in effect today as they were in the past, which sonme believe that they were only to jump start the church. But God hasnt changed -- we have.

If I am wrong in my understanding, Please show me otherwise for I am somewhat confused. I believe my wife and I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, But we dont speak in tongues and I believe that the Godhead consist of 3 seperate persons but yet in total unity (one) with each other. I do believe there are many fillings we experience through out our life time.

Again Ron thanks for responding and I look forward to seeing others views on this as well

In Jesus


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kevin

 2003/7/30 10:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi
Perhaps a word or two about Bible doctrine before we get on to details. How much do you think we know about God? How much do you think we have revealed about God in the Bible? For the first answer most thinking people would say the percentage is so small it doesn't even register. What about the second question? (Now please hear me out on this before you 'bin' me) God is so much bigger than His book. I think the answer to the second question is not much different to the first. Certainly, we have a sufficient revelation of God in His book; we have all that we need to know but that is still a tiny part of the total. Imagine a large circle and a tiny one placed inside it, sitting on the bottom of the big circle's arc but wholly inside the large circle. Now imagine a second tiny circle which intersects the first tiny circle but which has most of its area outside the first tiny circle and consequently most of its area outside the large circle. (have you ever played that game where you describe a spiral staircase without using your hands? :-))The larger circle is all the truth about God, tiny circle 1 is the biblical revelation of the whole scripture, tiny circle 2 is creation, religion, human insights. OK. The Bible is part of the whole truth of God, is without error as originally given. It is not the whole truth about God, to be so it would have to be infinite in its capacity. Only God can fully express God. It is however, in as much as it gives us, wholly reliable and wholly accurate, but incomplete as a revelation of God. The second tiny circle is human knowledge about God scattered in fragments, like the dying echoes of man's original knowledge, through religion and human insight. It sometimes has genuine revelation in it but it has so much mixture that it is wholly unreliable and in any case, there is no truth in that 2nd circle that is not already in the 1st tiny circle.
Why am I saying all this? Simply because in one sense all our biblical theology is hypothesis. Given all the evidence we have, and presuming we have interpreted it correctly, what we produce is a 'best fit'. The Bible gives very few definitions. We have to remember all the time that we know a tiny part of all there is to know about God; maybe that's why we will need eternity.. to fill in the gaps? ;-)
I am sure that the Trinitarian doctrine of God is utterly consistent with biblical revelation, but I have this hunch that God is a billion times more amazing than we are ever going to express in human language. I don't believe that 'Oneness/Jesus Only' really does justice to the evidence we have been given in the scripture, but I want to remain open hearted to the whole family of God. Creeds were originally created to exclude error, but have been used to exclude individuals. I am all for a clear statement of biblical truth but I won't use creeds or doctrinal statements to shut out someone who is my brother in Christ. We need to remember that whenever we shut someone out we are in danger of locking ourselves in.
I love this quotation from Finneys Systematic Theology "I hold myself sacredly bound, not to defend these positions at all events, but on the contrary, to subject every one of them to the most thorough discussion, and to hold and treat them as I would the opinions of any one else; that is, if upon further discussion and investigation I see no cause to change, I hold them fast; but if I can see a flaw in any one of them, I shall amend or wholly reject it, as further light shall demand. True Christian consistency implies progress in knowledge and holiness, and such changes in theory and in practice as are demanded by increasing light."
How different from the sobering comment of John Wesley's diary "I met with certain brethren who knew everything and therefore learned nothing".
I think that is one of the objectives of this forum 'thorough, further, discussion and investigation'. Iron sharpens iron and we can and must learn from each other.
More later on the specific questions.
His/Yours
Ron B


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Ron Bailey

 2003/7/30 11:42Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Just picking up on what you said about the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", the bible never refers to a baptism of the Holy Spirit, it talks about baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).

When a person first believes on the Lord Jesus Christ they are baptised with the Holy Spirit in His death, burial and resurrection and put into the one Body, His body (Romans 6:3-4, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21)

This baptism with the Holy Spirit is a one time non-experiential event as is Justification etc., what is experiential is the filing of the Holy Spirit which can happen at any time in a believers life, and especially happens when we are submitting to the will of God.

This filing of the Holy Spirit enables us to do all things in the will of God, e.g. Speaking in tongues, speaking the Word of God with boldness, forgiving people, loving one another (Acts 2:4, Acts 4:8, Acts 4:31, Acts 7:55) Paul tells us in his letter to the Ephesians to 'be filled with the spirit' which is in the present tense and could be translated as 'be being filled with the spirit'.

Baptism in water is a symbol of this union with Christ and is a outward sign to people that you are following Him, during the time when the book of acts was written if someone was baptised in water they may have been 'un-synagogued' for it! This is what is also known as baptism in the 'name' of Jesus Christ.


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Mark Nash

 2003/7/30 12:06Profile
JesusisGod2
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 14
Lockport IL

 Re:

Amen Nasher,

I do understand that Jesus is the one who does the baptism with The Spirit and am glad to see we are in agreement that this takes place the moment we repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness and for redemption.

And I really like what you have to say about the "fillings" of the Spirit. The gift that has been manifested in me is speaking Gods word with boldness and the gift of exhortation but no tongues as of yet but I do believe God will manifest this gift in me as well.

But there are some who would make you feel that you havent been baptised in the Holy Ghost if you dont speak in tongues. not only is this non scriptural, it is dangerous to the individuals growth who is being made to believe in these "false truths" and they become discouraged and rejected.

Jesus said "That it is inevitable stumbling blocks will come, but whoa to him through whom they come.
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
be on your guard! if your brother sins, rebuke him, if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:1-3 NASB

The little ones I believe Jesus is speaking of are new converts and in verse 3 it appears to me anyway that who He is speaking to are believers.
so if we are making believers feel in adequate because they dont manifest particular gifts of the Spirit -- we in fact cause them to stumble by causing confussion, inferiority, and even to doubt thier very salvation that God freely gave to them. and God says anything not of faith is sin so we therefor cause them to sin.

Jesus said our worst enemies will come from within our own household. Now again I believe he is not only addressing our blood but our spiritual household (I.E. church) not an enemy that we go to dukes but an enemy to our spiritual growth.

And so it again brings me to another teaching I am having trouble with and that is the teaching on "Oneness" is it or isnt it? is wrong to believe God exist in 3 persons But one Godhead?

Now I dont consider my church my enenies but there is a bit of confussion on where I should be now --- can 2 walk together unless they agree?

Your response and prayers are appreciated.

In Jesus


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kevin

 2003/7/30 13:59Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Nasher
There has already been a fair bit on this topic which you will find under 'tongues'.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by non-experiential. It is, after all, a 'baptism'. Is water baptism experiential? When I was baptised in water I was supremely conscience of water; when I was baptised in Spirit I was supremely conscious of 'Spirit'.
Peter calls Noah's flood a baptism and Paul calls the Crossing of the Red Sea a baptism. I should think these baptisms were 'experiential'.
I'm not trying to tie the Baptism in Spirit experience down to a particular manifestation i.e. tongues, but I do feel that 'baptism in Spirit' has to be a conscious experience.
His/Yours
Ron B


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Ron Bailey

 2003/7/30 14:56Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
maybe that's why we will need eternity.. to fill in the gaps?


Ah, a thought snatched from my very mind!
Quote:
I am sure that the Trinitarian doctrine of God is utterly consistent with biblical revelation, but I have this hunch that God is a billion times more amazing than we are ever going to express in human language.


I am guessing that your hunch is correct, even if it is off a couple billion :-D
Quote:
I love this quotation from Finneys Systematic Theology "I hold myself sacredly bound, not to defend these positions at all events, but on the contrary, to subject every one of them to the most thorough discussion, and to hold and treat them as I would the opinions of any one else; that is, if upon further discussion and investigation I see no cause to change, I hold them fast; but if I can see a flaw in any one of them, I shall amend or wholly reject it, as further light shall demand. True Christian consistency implies progress in knowledge and holiness, and such changes in theory and in practice as are demanded by increasing light."


Think I have heard parts of this quoted before.
This is definetely going up on the wall, great wisdom!
Quote:
I think that is one of the objectives of this forum 'thorough, further, discussion and investigation'. Iron sharpens iron and we can and must learn from each other.



AMEN! Great thread Ron,

"Come, let us reason together"


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Mike Balog

 2003/7/30 23:34Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi Ron, assuming that we agree that baptism with the Holy Spirit happens at salvation, and some people cannot put a date or time on when they were saved/justified/baptised with the Spirit (myself included), then these people did not 'experience' it in the way that some others do.
I think the reason why some people do 'experience' it is because they have been filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time or just after, like the Apostles in Acts 2.


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Mark Nash

 2003/7/31 3:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Nasher
Now you're going to have to define what you mean by 'salvation'. When was Abraham 'saved'? When were the disciples 'saved'? When Jesus said 'you will be baptised in the Holy Spirit not many days hence' did he mean you are not saved yet? 'Filled with the Spirit' and 'baptised in the Spirit' are not synonymous terms but they do sometimes refer to the same event.
His/Yours
Ron B


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Ron Bailey

 2003/7/31 4:03Profile





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