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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once saved, always saved?

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scotsbaker
Member



Joined: 2004/4/4
Posts: 20
England.

 Re: Once Saved, Always Saved

Rev David Pawson from England has written a book titled "Once Saved Always Saved?" which in the UK is available from Anchor Recordings: www.anchor-recordings.com They give the following introduction to the book:

"The majority Evangelical view is that once someone has accepted Christ as Saviour, they are guaranteed salvation. But is it safe to assume that once we are saved, we are saved for always?

David Pawson investigates this through biblical evidence, historical figures such as Augustine, Luther and Wesley, and evangelical assumptions about grace and justification, divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

This book helps us decide whether ''once saved, always saved'' is real assurance or a misleading assumption. The answer will have profound effects on the way we live and disciple others.

168 pages"





_________________
Brian

 2004/4/30 8:17Profile
JKail
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

Chanin, your story seems very similar to mine...thinking I was a Christian for a long time but living my own way and then coming to Christ and surrendering to him and realizing that I was just now being saved...

I used to hold to "once saved always saved" too but now Im not so sure about it. Im not 100% sure where I stand but what I dont like about "once saved always saved" is that it leaves no room for, or explanation for falling away, when it is talked about in the Bible. Paul had no problem saying that someone had "fallen away" or "shipwrecked their faith."

Like I said earlier, we need to hold to the whole counsel of the Word of God not to the doctrine of men and we need to avoid extremism.

-Jake Kail


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Jake Kail

 2004/4/30 10:44Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

bgyeo3 wrote:

"That is why repentance is important. But has salvation been taken away from him or her? My answer is no. Because if salvation could be taken away by something you did or did not do, that would mean salvation is no longer based on faith, but on deeds."

Everything you said I agree with in terms of relationship being a reality. Also I agree with your point on how important repentance is in the life of a believer. We do stumble and God is there faithfully willing to pick us up. Yet repentance is required. God provides the grace, we must change our minds and return to Him.

"And he said to him, "Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother [b]was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found."[/b] I believe this teaching clearly states that if the wayward son had not chosen to return to His Father, he would have remained lost.

Paul writes to Timothy, "This is a faithful saying; For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we [b]deny[/b] Him, He also will [b]deny[/b] us. If we are [b]faithless[/b], He [b]remains faithful[/b] He cannot deny Himself." 2Timothy 11-13

The essences of the relationship in which you speak requires obedience of us. Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed. A real relationship with our Lord will impart the same joys and suffering He experienced as man. As we grow in maturity our responsibility to Him grows. He will not allow His name to be blasphemed among the heathen. The only purpose for which we live is to glorify Him. The walk may be crooked but the journey will seperate us unto Him.

The gift that is freely given must be received by us. The content of the gift will change us into His image. All the things of Christ will be given to us. The choice for us is this, Are we willing to enter into death and recieve the newness of Life?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/4/30 11:11Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Brian,

Believe I have heard about this book. Should be very helpful for those that want more indepth study into this.

Came across this verse this morning while working on something else, had forgotten all about it:

"[i]Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."[/i]

Sounds as if the [i]possibilty[/i] is there to have your name removed?

"[i][b]I will not[/b]--Greek, "I will not by any means."

[b]blot out . . . name out of . . . book of life[/b]--of the heavenly city. A register was kept in ancient cities of their citizens: the names of the dead were of course erased. So those who have a name that they live and are dead (Rev_3:1), are blotted out of God's roll of the heavenly citizens and heirs of eternal life; not that in God's electing decree they ever were in His book of life. But, according to human conceptions, those who had a high name for piety would be supposed to be in it, and were, in respect to privileges, actually among those in the way of salvation; but these privileges, and the fact that they once might have been saved, shall be of no avail to them. As to the book of life, compare Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8; Rev_20:12, Rev_20:15; Rev_21:27; Exo_32:32; Psa_69:28; Dan_12:1. In the sense of the "call," many are enrolled among the called to salvation, who shall not be found among the chosen at last. The pale of salvation is wider than that of election. Election is fixed. Salvation is open to all and is pending (humanly speaking) in the case of those mentioned here. But Rev_20:15; Rev_21:27, exhibit the book of the elect alone in the narrower sense, after the erasure of the others.

JFB Commentary


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/4/30 11:40Profile
Saint_Ferg
Member



Joined: 2004/1/22
Posts: 12
Belfast

 Re:

This subject is a very thorny one in my experience and for a while my response has been that a christian can "fall" from grace in the sense that where there is sin that is not dealt with or a turning from God that person who may have known the Lord's grace could in fact recant that assertion but as I look more and more at the miraculous nature of our rebirth I cannot understand how a born-again Christian can be lost however, there are scriptures that would suggest such a possibility.

I do live in absolute certainty that I am saved and will not fall from grace and that assurance isn't something that I can recieve from man - only the Holy Spirit can give that assurance and so this topic to me becomes a bit of a moot point as I continue to know the conviction of the Spirit leading me on to repentance and coming in peace when I am walking right.

Thus the way that I now deal with this point is to counsel caution and emphasis the need for a personal confirmation of truth. I certainly would not attempt to, in my counsel, play down the effects and seriousness of sin before God to placate a guilty conscience.

The truth of the matter is that the Blood of Christ Jesus cleanses from all sin but it does require application.

God Bless

Jonny


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Jonathan Ferguson

 2004/4/30 16:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Jkail wrote:

"Chanin, your story seems very similar to mine...thinking I was a Christian for a long time but living my own way and then coming to Christ and surrendering to him and realizing that I was just now being saved..."

Andrew Murray speaks to this thought. It can be found in his commentary on Hebrews; The Holiest of All?

Paraphrasing him, he suggests that all who come to Christ begin their relationship with God under the law. That is to say that we begin as babes in Christ. We are not able to understand the things that are spiritual. See 1 Corinthians the first 3 chapters to understand what Paul teaches about carnal Christians. So in that sense we enter into His forgiveness yet are unable to understand the spiritual. Thus we are under the law.

As Chanin and JKail stated there was a change in their life subsequent to their initial baptism. I too have experienced and continue to experience a change in my understanding. Many say that the New Covenant is and unconditional covenant. My question is, when does one enter the New Covenant? The life of Abraham is to be our example. God said to Abraham go to another country. Abraham obeyed. Thirty years or so later, God makes a Coventant with him and changes his name from Abram to Abraham.

Paul writes in Romans 8:13, "For [b]if[/b] you live according to the flesh you will die; but [b]if[/b] by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Please notice the condition put before us. What is our response to His call? What must we do? We must put to death the deeds of the body by following the Spirit. This is the condition by which we enter into the New Covenant. Only then can we glorify Him.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/5/3 12:58Profile
killertonedotcom
Member



Joined: 2004/5/4
Posts: 6


 Re: This is not Theoretical for me...right now it is REAL

I remember what it was like to have such great confidence in the Bible and in God and in Jesus. I even remember running into a guy who said he knew he wasn't chosen for heaven. I prayed for him, because I thought how sad that anyone could reach such a conclusion--that God had essentially no interest in saving him.

TODAY I feel like that same man. I REALLY REALLY think I was saved by any definition that a preacher would give. If Calvinism is true, then you can study me as one pathetic example of someone that "God was not pleased to save"...go home and give thanks that you were not me.

The ironic thing is: That first Calvinistic sermon I heard 10+ years ago, was the beginning of this losing faith process. It opened the pandora's box of doubts about God and his goodness...and it's been downhill from there.
Right now, I want to believe...but I can't---seems like its over.

 2004/5/5 23:38Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Carlos, Brother.

I am not even close to being anything of an expert on all this Calvin/Armenian 'issue'. But as I alluded to elsewhere I believe it is a colossal waste of time, trying to figure out what is meant by 'predestination' and who, what, when, if...There has to be some kind of misunderstanding about it all if all these great minds can't come to grips with it after all this time.

If this is the result of where this 'doctrine' leads then we would be better off banishing it from the language.

As far as I am concerned and I have no desire to go back into the whole 'issue' IT IS NOT OVER!

A thousand times NO!

I am sure you know enough scripture to know what it means to be saved. Forget all this nonsense about trying to figure out the Mind of God. I think this has been lurking in the back of my mind for awhile, that this very possibility was there, from this doctrine. Now I have to pour it all out.

Brother I am praying for you like I don't know what. I pray you will respond back here.

It seems we can do ourselves and others a great disservice, goodness we are talking about peoples salvations here, by all this mincing of words. Same goes for the "Once saved always saved" issue.

Maybe, just maybe, we need to really simplify this instead of pitting scripture against scripture and getting lost in a maze of doubts.

I threw this one out there before and it got by quietly;
Are you saved? Truly saved, as in repented of your sins, and "Act 16:31 And they said, [b]Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved[/b], and thy house."
Then you were 'predestined. Period.
As far as the other issue goes there is only one thing that I can find to solve that, it's
"believe" which is a continuance, an active, in motion word, not something you do once and then put in your back pocket. Certainly there will be growth and fruit as you continue on "believing". But, the Lord is not going to cast you off, Jesus did not come here to save 'some' but all.
Why it is our 'duty' to try and figure out the mind of God on all this is beyond me.

The devil is in all this. Over emphasizing the wrong things and underemphasizing the right things.

'Once saved always saved', I think it was Jeremy that originally said it, but now I think I really see it, why he was so reluctant to get into it, sorry brother if I am mis-stating this and or you.
But I repent of whatever I may have opinion-ed of my little pea brain about this that was wrong.
This is a man made statement that is really not there in scripture...it's like a round square.

We have the horse before the cart on all this. Same with "ask Jesus into your heart" all these things.

We need to get back to basics, back to the simplicity that is the Gospel. It IS GOOD NEWS! Not a bunch of mental gymnastics or laying heavy burdens on people. Jesus said MY burden is LIGHT.

It is repentance.
It is forsaking of sin.
It is a narrow path.
It is NOT easy.
It is sacrifice.
And surrender.
And obedience.

But it is all a matter of the HEART!

And the Lord PROMISED that HE would be the one to preform it in us, we just have to let HIM.

Oh Lord, open our eyes!
Open our ears to hear!
Open our hands so You can take and give as You please.
Open our hearts to You.
Fill us with The Holy Spirit.
Oh Lord reveal yourself to us and reveal Yourself to Carlos, let him KNOW that he is loved by You.
Strip away all these useless thought's Lord, let us think Your thoughts after You.
In Your Holy Name, the Name above all names, in Your Name Lord Jesus, I pray. Amen.

Carlos it is NOT OVER.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/5/6 2:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Carlos:

Do not fear men but fear God. God is faithful He can not deny Himself. I exhort you to read the Holy Scriptures and forget about man's thoughts. Let God give you His thoughts. Let Him show you His faithfulness. Believe every word of the Bible. He will give you understanding of how everything fits together. Do not allow men to make you their disciples.

The times God has spoken to me through Scripture have been times of anguish and crying out to Him. I believe you are in the right place to hear. Trust in Him and live in the Holy Scriptures. He will lift you up with wings of an eagle.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/5/7 10:53Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Carlos,

Here is a message that I trust will be of encouragement to you in your struggle;

[url=http://www.timeforrenewal.com/mp3/040425-1_DW.mp3]Ever Present Help In Trouble[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2004/5/7 16:12Profile





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