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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once saved, always saved?

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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ron (philologos) rightly pointed out in earlier posts that the prophet who Paul is quoting wrote this about Jacob and Esau LONG after their deaths.
In fact, This passage is not talking about Jacob and Esau at all but about their descendants. And the prophecy was right; the descendants of Esau served the descendants of Jacob. Jacob became the heir of the promise which Esau despised.

Election as some define it does not pertain to salvation but to service. That God had chosen Jacob did not mean that Esau would not be saved, but that Jacob and his descendants would be the people through whom God would reach out to the world.

Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in

HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; (8)but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Ok, now that I have opened the can of Ron would probably

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/4/28 19:55Profile

Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


Thank you for quoting the rest of the Hebrews passage, I would have had to do so otherwise.

Ok, now that I have opened the can of Ron would probably

It's a can of worms, indeed. But by God's grace we can discuss this in the right Spirit and not sin by pride or hatred or such.

May God guide us all,

 2004/4/28 23:54Profile

Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK


I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.

That said I would say that if I asked a man "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and he says "yes", I take it that he is born from above; however if at a later time I ask him the same question and he says "no" then I believe he is not born from above.

The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?
And does it matter about the past? present? or future? :-o

Mark Nash

 2004/4/29 10:11Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


All believer's have access to the promises of God in Jesus Christ. Not all believers obey the Spirit. Those who continually rebel against the Spirit that is in them will die the second death.

"For if you live according to the flesh [b]you will die; [/b] but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13

God will not allow unholy people to remain in His kingdom. Paul is very clear on this when he says, "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Jesus, our high priest is the forerunner of our faith. He will lead you to the cross, and your flesh will be crucified. Then you will know the ressurected life.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2004/4/29 10:45Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


After reflecting on the wise consoul of Ron(s) a couple of things came up. One, it is a rather sinister question the way it is usually defined;
'Once saved, always saved'
It can imply either doubt, paranoia or false assurance, overconfidence.
The question itself smacks of the devil.
Secondly, there are really only two possible outcomes;

Not saved.

Certainly there is some built in safeguards against listening to the lies of the accuser as well as having a right understanding of the security of the believer. Most of which have been laid out already.

I think it was already mentioned before but;

Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

If you haven't been taken out behind the barn you might have a pause of concern about your standing.
I try to avoid it (the 'barn') as much as possible.

Personally I still find it all so amazing that I could be saved from all that I have done, I [i][b] have[/b][/i] to take it on faith that the only way I can approach the Father is through Jesus alone. And though I believe that, to my dying day I will likely live with that undercurrent that not only do I not deserve it, can't do anything to merit it and am completely helpless otherwise, it is still possible that I could fall away, backslide, whatever you want to call it...

I do get a bit concerned when I hear people boasting to loudly about their assurance, especially when it is couched in this "always" terminology, it smacks of self confidence, pride, almost a 'deserving' kind of attitude. I hope this makes some kind of sense. In a nut shell:

[i]To the cross I cling[/i]

Mike Balog

 2004/4/29 11:33Profile

Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632

 Re: once saved

Jeff, I tend to agree with you, though I wouldn't have a few years ago when i was a lukewarm Christian living the way i wanted. I was brought up to believe that as long as you said the "prayer", you were "in". While all along I was doing what i wanted and had not surrendered my whole life (and everything that consists of) to the Lord. I had not handed him the keys and gotten in the trunk. :)

Now that i know what true surrender is- I know I was not really a christian at all- even if I might have been for a short while (at 12 when I first said the sinner's prayer).

Two things stand out to me. The Pilgrims Progress. It's a journey. You are shown the path to follow and then it is up to you to stay on it. There will be obstacles and pitfalls and what are you going to do? Go back, take another side path? No, stay on the narrow path- no matter how hard it is.

Remember Jesus said these words "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Mt.7:14

If "few find it" then He is either lying or there are alot of Christians who are deceived. hmmmm.

Also, I remind myself that we must work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling'. There is no guarantee as long as I am living my life for myself- as I please. I am not in doubt or fear though, if I am living in obedience to Him.

Yes, I fear the Lord! :) But He is so gracious and wonderful, why wouldn't I want to give my all and everything of myself to Him. He can handle "me" better than me.

Watchman Nee had a great description in The Normal Christian Life. He said that salvation takes care of the "sin" we have done but the cross (taking up the cross daily) takes care of the "sinner". When we are saved we are forgiven of past sin but what about our old man who needs to be crucified? That has to be done daily too.

satisfied in Him, Chanin


 2004/4/29 11:56Profile

Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.

It's not a matter of being born and then "unborn," I don't think we have any example of such a process in anything. It's a matter of being born and dying. I've quoted this Scripture before but I think it's important to understand conditional security (my variety of it, anyway) :

James 1
14 But every man is [b]tempted[/b] when he is drawn away by his own [b]lust[/b] and enticed.
15 Then when [b]lust[/b] hath [b]conceived[/b], it bringeth forth [b]sin[/b]; and [b]sin[/b], when it is [b]finished[/b], bringeth forth [b]death[/b].

It's not that you're born and die, born and die, born and die as many times as you sin after conversion, but if you fall into sin and do not repent you will spiritually die. Otherwise James 5:19-20 makes no sense:

James 5
19 [b]Brethren[/b], if any of [b]you[/b] err from the truth and one convert him,
20 let him [b]know[/b] that he who converteth the [b]sinner[/b] from the error of his way shall [b][u]save[/u] a [u]soul[/u] from [u]death[/u][/b], and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Why would James write, directly addressing the "Brethren" that if any of "you" err from the truth (that error specified in v.20 as sin) and one conver him, let him "know" that he has "saved" a "soul" from "death," if one of the Brethren could not possibly experience spiritual death?

The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?

I think far more often than lost salvation what we see is false conversion, i.e. the people were never saved at all. Even if they were, it somewhat doesn't matter: on the Day of Judgment, your previous condition(s) don't matter, what matters is what state you were in when you died.

 2004/4/29 18:24Profile

Joined: 2004/4/19
Posts: 12


This is one of those things in the bible that seem to go both ways. Yes, God says he will never let go of us. Then you can look at the many scriptures already shared realize perseverance is an absolute necessity. The same goes for baptism. Over here, "Jesus is Lord." Then here, believe and be baptized. When we have multiple scriptures about the same thing, we have to accept them all. (As already said.) They don't contradict each other, they complement each other. Not everything can be said in every passage, so it only makes sense to piece it all together.

Specifically with 'once saved, always saved,' I believe the scriptures given suffice, but also like the analogy of the gift. Salvation is a gift from God. A true gift we DO NOT deserve. Much like any other gift, we can tell everyone about our joy in receiving it, or we can through it away. God is not an 'Indian giver,' but we can rip, crumple and dispose of His gift.

 2004/4/29 21:26Profile

Joined: 2004/4/26
Posts: 4
Melbourne, Australia


Thank you brother and sisters for taking the time to tackle this truth.

I really appreciate the scriptures and the opinions expressed.

It is my understanding from scripture that salvation comes from faith alone. Romans 10:9 [i]"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him form the dead, you will be saved." [/i](NIV)

However there is also genuine faith; faith that is in Christ alone based on scriptural truth thus allowing a transformation in your life, and a superficial faith; faith in Christ based on others, leading to no true relationship with God.

It is also to my understanding that transformation is not “one time event”, but is a constant process in our walk towards being more like Christ. As it is written in Romans 3:10 [i]“There is no one righteous, not even one.”[/i] This means that no one can earn right standing with God simply because we are sinners.

To state that “if someone is living in sin, they aren’t saved, period.” Suggests that a lot of us are not saved after putting our faith in Jesus Christ because we still sin. I am assuming that “living in sin” means to constantly indulge in it despite the truth being made available. This constitutes that the believer has not a changed in heart (as he/she still loves their sins) and an unchanged heart would mean a superficial relationship with God. The results of a superficial relationship with God can be seen in Matthew 7:21.

Matthew 7:21 [i]“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”.[/i]

This verse simply states that people can “talk” the “talk” but don’t “walk” the “talk”. Our Lord wants a commitment based relationship with us to [b]do[/b] right, not just to [b]say[/b] “uh-huh at four or five places” (from Paris Reidhead).

Therefore if we see our relationship with Christ as the factor that ensures salvation the question is what is a relationship with Christ? To simply put it it’s our acceptance of Him as Savior and our obedience to Him. Obedience as seen in Matthew 7:21 [i]“he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”.[/i]

How does this then answer the question of “once saved, always saved?”. If salvation is based upon genuine faith, leading to a relationship with God, and if a relationship means acceptance and obedience, how can one lose his or her salvation unless that person chooses deliberately despite the truth to sin? And if that person were to deliberately choose to sin because they still love their sins, doesn’t that suggest that their relationship with God is superficial? What about those who still sin despite having a relationship with God you might ask, then the question is how does their heart feel? Is there guilt? Is there grief? Is there a longing to get right with God for reasons that are not selfish e.g. salvation? Are they afraid that they’ll burn in hell?

James 5:19 highlights a believer who has fallen into sin, one who on longer lives a life consistent with his or her beliefs. [i]“My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins.” [/i]James is talking about the importance of repentance, which is to experience sorrow and to seek to change wrong behavior. This illustrates the reaction of a person who has a true relationship with Christ. Repentance comes from a changed heart longing to get right with Him.

That is why repentance is important. But has salvation been taken away from him or her? My answer is no. Because if salvation could be taken away by something you did or did not do, that would mean salvation is no longer based on faith, but on deeds. That would mean we are all trying to earn salvation. Salvation is, as our brother nekaras puts it, a gift from God by His grace. Indeed faith without deeds is dead. But deeds are a by-product of faith and not the prime product for salvation.

My conclusion is that if you have a [b]true[/b] relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands.

John 10:27-29 [i]“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”[/i]

Sorry this was so long, but thank you for taking the time to read this. Please correct me if I’m incorrect. I pray that what I’ve spoken is of truth and does not cause anyone to stumble.


Daryl Yeo

 2004/4/30 1:31Profile

Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK


My conclusion is that if you have a true relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands.

Just a thought :-) Does God force us to stay in his hands can we choose to step out of his hands
My security is in the knowlage that I am transformed by the new nature living in me.This compells me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling,as has already been said.
sorry, just my 2 pennys worth

derek Eyre

 2004/4/30 5:47Profile

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