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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


Agreed. If it is not submissive, it is not faith.

 2007/7/30 3:00Profile



That has become my favorite word. There is nothing I love more then to hear Christians say that!!

 2007/7/30 3:12


When James said, "by works a man is justified and not by faith only" (James 2:24) I believe James was referencing a counterfeit faith of mere belief, and not genuine saving faith.

Which is why James said previously, "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man [i]say[/i] he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him". (James 2:14). Notice James said, "a man say" that he has faith, not that he actually does have it.

Some may "say" that they have faith, but show that they really don't, when there is no evidence of it in their works.

James was not saying that someone can have genuine faith and not have works. He went on to say:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17)

Rather then making an antithesis between works and faith, I believe James put the two together. False faith, which has no works but is mere belief, cannot save anyone. False faith is mere belief and is not saving faith.

But true faith repents and believes from the heart, and then perseveres unto the end (so long as one does not forsake the faith or lose the faith). Faith that repents, believes, and perseveres is true faith!. Trusting and obeying the gospel from the heart truly is saving faith.

So I don't think James was saying that genuine faith can exist without works and that genuine faith is not alone sufficient to save. But rather that genuine faith always works and that genuine faith is saving faith. Because genuine faith boths trusts and obeys from the heart.

So James put works and faith together, rather then seperating them. Works without faith is dead works. Faith without works is dead faith. But working faith, or a faith that works, is genuine true faith. Genuine faith repents and believes, trusts and obeys.

 2007/7/30 4:38

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


It is of the nature of true faith that it can never remain 'alone'. Paul writes

[color=0033FF] And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak, (2Corinthians 4:13 NKJV)[/color]

It is that 'therefore' that identifies true faith. True faith always has a 'therefore'; a consequence. To Timothy he writes of 'genuine faith'...

[color=0033FF]when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also. (2Timothy 1:5 NKJV)[/color]

The word for 'genuine' is literally 'without hypocrisy'; the word hypocrit being the Greek word for actor. Paul is referring, indirectly, to 'fake' faith' and the designation 'fake' or implies that there are at least two kinds of faith "genuine' and 'fake'.

This is a sobering reality that there is a 'kind' of faith upon which God cannot build and which he does not trust.

[color=0033FF] Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many [u]believed[/u] in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not [u]commit[/u] Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. (John 2:23-25 NKJV)[/color]

The word for 'believe', pisteuO, is translated here by both 'believe' and 'commit'. It is a useful biblical definition to realised that 'belief without commitment' is not 'genuine faith without hypocrisy'. The best general, all purpose, word for a translation might be 'trust'. They trusted him, but only because of the manifested power. Christ cannot trust that kind of 'trust'. It is an inadequate foundation upon which to build his work.

Ron Bailey

 2007/7/30 10:43Profile


Works have absolutely nothing to do with justification in the eyes of God. Works justifies us in the eyes of men. "Faith is the evidence of things unseen". So how is faith seen in the eyes of men? Works. Not our own fleshly works. The works done in the Spirit. Were the only God they'll ever see. Were always so worried about condeming the sinner. I'll tell you brother. That will not save anyone. We must be able to touch them. They must see Christ in us. Could be as simple as just a hug as a show of compassion. If it's done in the Spirit they will FEEL that. All he needs is a body. He'll do the rest if we'll get out of the way and let him work through us.

Works has nothing to do with justification in the eyes of God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast."

 2007/7/30 11:27

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 Justification and Salvation

bro Chiefisiners

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

works have much to do with Justification, in fact it is works which are done in Faith which Justify a man before God. It seems you have juxtaposed Justification onto Salvation. Salvation is by Faith as pointed out in the scripture you mentioned. However, Justification has to do with Faith which produces works. Justification is not Salvation but Justification is a consequence of Salvation. When one is Saved, He is Justified also which means (Justified that is) to be shown to be right before God. For us to be shown we are Right before God involves some sort of evidence, that is doing the works which God has prepared for us. If you read in the epistle of James, he says that Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac as a sacrifice. that means that the Faith of Abraham, and Abraham himself was proven to be Right before God by offering his son. The evidence of His Faith was that sacrifice. bro James also says that Faith without works is dead which means one can't have Faith without works, there must be evidence of Faith.

from James 2

[b]14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. F7 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without F8 thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit F9 is dead, so faith without works is dead also. [/b]

i hope that clears up the issue of Justification.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/30 20:05Profile

 Re: Justification and Salvation

"Faith without works is dead." Sure! The same way we can have dead churches. The people are still saved but their faith is dead.

 2007/7/30 21:33

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707

 Re: Justification and Salvation

Someone said it is not faith alone that saves you, but you must add works to faith to procure your own salvation and to show others what kind of faith you have. I believe that came form a man called James. This James was a died in the wool Jew, writing to Jews in Israel. This James who was called the bishop of Jerusalem had his deep roots in the Law of Moses, this law was governed by works and if anyone would commingle law and grace it would be James. Just a thought for some of James sayings that conflict with the Christ revelated Gospel that was given to Paul and he Paul given permission to call it his Gospel to fulfill the Word of God.

Justification by Faith, absolutely, it is Christ who has been made our justification, and it is his faith that saves us to justification in Him. Nothing we did, do or will do can change this birth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is only Christ that give saving Faith, it is His Faith given to the born again by the Father's Seed in the new creation race of people that The Father now calls "the son's of God".

Is it truly faith that justifies? Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (works) of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Even more::::::? Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Then two by James?: Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"Not before God".

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

A true Student of Moses speaking.

I choose to listen to Paul who was given the Final Gospel by Christ Himself and speaking to all the churches in all the land he preached this gospel, Jesus Christ is our Faith and our Justification, and that will never change, even throughout all eternity, He being first Born among many son's and when it is finished He will return all authority and every son to the Father that God may be all in all.

Justification by Faith and nothing else, you choose whom you would believe.

I choose to believe Paul and see completely where James is coming from and the power of the Holy Spirit separating the old gospel of Moses form the Final Gospel of Paul given by Christ Himself.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/7/30 22:01Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164



chiefosiners wrote:
"Faith without works is dead." Sure! The same way we can have dead churches. The people are still saved but their faith is dead.

If their faith is dead, are not they dead also?

Josh Parsley

 2007/7/30 23:09Profile

Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario



Yes. Although I know you are already knew the answer to that.


Murray Beninger

 2007/7/30 23:15Profile

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