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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Orthodox Statement of Faith?

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 Re:

Doug said

Quote:
That verse (All of Ezekiel Chapter 33 and Chapter 18)has proper use and authority only in the context of a warning that accompanies a proclamation and explanation of the gospel, the substance of which Paul outlines for us in ICor.15:1-3.

The "warning" is the exhortation that follows and complements the preaching and teaching of the gospel, not our concerns of international or cultural conflict and strife...

As an example of how the Holy Spirit demonstrated the proper use and application of the Ezekiel "warning" passages....

Note the Apostle Paul's inference to this "warning" of Ezekiel's watchmen as applying to the ongoing proclamation of the gospel and the teaching of disciples in a given community...

The verse you quote retains heavenly authority only in it's Holy Spirit authoritative and inspired context of proclaiming the gospel...



Blessings Doug. Good to hear from you.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation of

"If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul." (EZE 33:3-5)

Like most of the scriptures, practical advice correlates with spiritual.

As an adult, if you see a young child climbing too high into a tree, won't you intercede by warning him of the dangers of climbing too high - even if you aren't related or don't know him at all?

If you overhear two gentlemen at a restaurant quietly planning to rob a bank, won't you call the police?

And if you're aware your government's overstepping it boundries by curtailing its citizens privacy and liberty, won't you warn your fellow citizens?

And if you don't warn the kid and he falls and is paralyzed...

And you don't warn the police and someone is killed during the bank robbery...

And you don't warn your fellow citizens and the nation falls into despotism...

You don't think God will judge you for your impotent silence?

 2007/7/21 18:07
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re: Orthodox Statement of Faith?

Well, what Jesse is trying to do, as it appears to me, is show us what he believes is the logical conclusion, or implied belief in the statements of Calvinists and those who believe once saved always saved. Of course that's not to say that there actually aren't people who not only imply a belief in this based on their theology, but actually blatantly say they believe it. John Piper says he sins and must sin every day in thought word and deed. That's horrible. That's a false teaching. Christ died to save people from habitual sin. I don't have any names of theologians who believe that Christ didn't die for everyone, but yes! they do exist, we've read it. And that's bad because He did die for everyone; look at all the scriptures he mentioned and others.
Some of you do not believe that that is the logical conclusion or implied belief of your doctrine. Therefore you were offended that he would say such things, knowing that they are directed at you. I gotta admit that that is actually pretty understandable, but it does seem to me that what he is doing is biblical. If you see a destructive element in what someone purports as true, it is natural to warn them, hoping that they will take heed. When they do not listen your plea, it would become more passionate, but not necessarily "emotional" as he and others were accused. Many of you did that very thing in response to his post, and some of you with bitterness and anger unfortunately.
So, I hope we all are drawing from the reservoirs of Christ's grace in order to grow in His likeness and manifest His love. God bless you all.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/7/21 18:13Profile
loveroftruth
Member



Joined: 2006/10/25
Posts: 25


 Re: Response to Disagreement

Ok Brother, take a deep breath and sing "Amazing Grace" whilst though read this. :)

CH
"And if you don't warn the kid and he falls and is paralyzed..."

DES response: I warn him in love as a work of love and care that accompanies the gospel but I truly warn as I use that platform to proclaim Christ.

CH:And you don't warn the police and someone is killed during the bank robbery...

DES response: I warn the police and let them know that I honor them as such and thank them for their public service because God has ordained them as ministers for good according to Rom. 13:4 and from that platform proclaim Christ to them and fulfill the exhortation implied in Ezekiel.

CH:"And you don't warn your fellow citizens and the nation falls into despotism..."

DES response : All nations (yes even Canada ) have fallen into despotism to varying degrees because of the fallen nature of every human being, It is revealed in open depravity of lifestyle and in God ignoring morally haughty self righteousness equally.

Again every nation according to the promise of the gospel will ultimately be restored from despotism to righteousness.

Isaiah 53:15 prophetically in the context of proclaiming Christ's work of atonement and the blessing that would come to those who embrace the gospel that explains Christ as that atonement.

"So shall He sprinkle many nations."
In other words nations shall ultimately be inhabited by those who have been sprinkled by the blood of Christ (sanctifed, set apart, made holy and righteous by faith and perfected in that righteousness by His Holy Spirit)

IPeter2:9-10 says concerning our identity and calling corporately in Christ; " we are a a chosen generation a royal priesthood, a holy nation.

Proclaiming the praises of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Emphasis on the gospel :

As a holy nation, Jesus says we are salt and light. A preserving influence and a proclaiming people. As a holy nation we will one day inhabit all the nations under the rule of Christ having been perfected by Him.

Only then will all the nations be sprinkled and set apart for Him and set free from despotism because the all powerful, benevolent King will be present and in place ruling.

We can adress political issues and social concerns with a light touch as a platform for the gospel. Come now, our love for others is only present and can only be perfected because of the love of Christ. Would we deny the members of a nation the real deal while posturing ourselves to only provide possible temporal solutions.

If you truly love your nation and it's people, then proclaim Christ and let every other issue be subservient to that. If it cannot be used as a platofrm for the gospel or to build a relationship in the gospel, set it aside.

I choose to remember that Jesus' description of any nation or people group or clique or gathering is compassionately described by Him in this manner; "sheep without a shepherd." Like Christ respond and proclaim His Kingdom, His gospel, He is the Good Shepherd."

Jesus called you and I to view humanity and again any nation from the vantage point of Himself: In John 4:35 "Behold I say unto you,lift up your eyes,and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest. And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.

That sowing and reaping is in the context of the gospel of Christand those transformed by it.

CH:"You don't think God will judge you for your impotent silence?"

DES response: I will give an account for whether or not I was faithful to proclaim the gospel, be willing to suffer for it and endure hardships as a result, and lay down my life for those who are transformed by it.

I will answer as to what degree I chose to order this life by abiding in Christ and His love.

I will be evaluated by Christ as to what degree I let my life become His workmanship and let my life become a vessel that fulfilled the good works He has prepared beforehand.

He will be unwavering, yet gracious and merciful in that day.

DES Conclusion: The real enemy is sin and the devil. Remember that.

The only and final authority is Christ. Respond to it and discard any distortions along the way.

Matt.28:18-20 "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the age.

Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel."

Luke 24:46-47" and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jersusalem."

If we fail to fulfill our part in submission to this authority, then we fail.

Accomodate the authority of the one who is present with you. You have the mind of Christ. Grow in it brother.

Cheers,

Love you brother :)

Doug





 2007/7/21 20:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now my comment about Wesley and Fletcher was not to infer that they were Roman Catholic, but to show how they too made the fatal mistake that Rome makes in blurring justification and sanctification, and saying that a must be sanctified to be justified.



All true ministers of the gospel have preached that a sinner must forsake all sin from his heart in order to be saved, and that if a sinner refuses to turn from all sin from his heart, there is no hope for him, there is no salvation possible to him, but he must be eternally punished. Complete and total repentance is absolutely necessary before God will forgive sin. Only repented sins are forgivable sins. God never forgives unrepented sins.

Quote:
Well, what Jesse is trying to do, as it appears to me, is show us what he believes is the logical conclusion, or implied belief in the statements of Calvinists and those who believe once saved always saved. Of course that's not to say that there actually aren't people who not only imply a belief in this based on their theology, but actually blatantly say they believe it.



I have shown that statement of faith to professing Calvinists who have openly told me that they say "amen" to it. Amen?? Amen?? [b]WHAT!?![/b] God hates the majority of the world?!? God wants the majority of the world to live in sin and die in sin?!?!? [b]WHAT?!?!?[/b] Christians are eternally secure no matter how much they sin, even if they sin every day??? [b]LIAR!!![/b] You have got to be kidding me!

Words cannot express how terribly grieved I am at such [b]FALSE[/b] theology, which in my estimation, to say the lest, is from the very pits of hell!!


Quote:
John Piper says he sins and must sin every day in thought word and deed. That's horrible. That's a false teaching. Christ died to save people from habitual sin.



I couldn't believe it when I heard Piper say that he continues to sin every single day, and that the great news he has ever heard is that the sins he will deffinately commit next week are ALREADY forgiven.

If that is not antinomian heresy nothing is!! Is that really the greatest news Piper has ever heard? I emailed Piper to tell him even better news, he doesn't have to be a slave of sin, Jesus Christ can set him free!!!

Quote:
I don't have any names of theologians who believe that Christ didn't die for everyone, but yes! they do exist, we've read it. And that's bad because He did die for everyone; look at all the scriptures he mentioned and others.



It's a theology called TULIP, which is really a weed in the vineyard of the Lord.

There are [b]LOTS[/b] of unfortinate and decieved believers today who believe in this TULIP nonsense theology, with their antiscriptural view of "limited atonement". They take away and lessen the most beautiful doctrine of the bible!!

When they preach they cannot say, as they ought to say, to all sinners:

Jesus died for [b]you[/b]

God loves [b]you[/b]

God wants [b]you[/b] to repent and be saved

Because they don't know who God loves and who he doesn't, who Christ died for and who He didn't, who God wants to repent and who God wants to continue in sin.

If they were honest, they would have to say:

Jesus died for [b]some[/b] of you

God loves a [b]few[/b] of you

God wants a [b]few[/b] of you to repent and be saved

And they would not be inconsistent with their views if they preached like this:

God hates [b]most[/b] of you

Jesus doesn't care about [b]most[/b] of you

God wants [b]most[/b] of you to live in sin and die in sin, and go to hell for our unavoidable sins.

[b]WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BIBLE!! AND AWAY FROM THIS WEED CALLED TULIP[/b]

Quote:
it does seem to me that what he [Jesse] is doing is biblical. If you see a destructive element in what someone purports as true, it is natural to warn them, hoping that they will take heed. When they do not listen your plea, it would become more passionate, but not necessarily "emotional" as he and others were accused. Many of you did that very thing in response to his post, and some of you with bitterness and anger unfortunately.



Yes, the [b]TRUTH[/b] is far too [b]BEAUTIFUL[/b] and [b]WONDERFUL[/b] and [b]GLORIOUS[/b] and [b]HOPEFUL[/b] to let such [b]TERRIBLE[/b] and [b]AWEFUL[/b] and [b]HORRIFIC[/b] views spread like a plague throughout the Church.

And so out of love for the amazing and heart melting truth of God, I wrote that "Statement of Faith" in a hope to manifest and bring to the light such terrible darkness.

I know some of you might think I'm being too hard or too harsh. But don't you believe that the truth is too beautiful and awesome to be turned into such foolishness and nonsense???

 2007/7/22 0:40
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Complete and total repentance is absolutely necessary before God will forgive sin.



No Jesse, fatih is the means by which a man is justified, and repentance is a fruit of that faith, not the cause of it.

On the day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd, and they cried out, "what must we do?" Did he tell them, "confess every sin you have ever committed to be saved"? or did he say, "repent, and be baptized"?

And what sin were they convicted of? Denial of God's Christ was it not?

Quote:
God never forgives unrepented sins.



So then how do you ever have time to preach? I mean if you would be honest, you would admit that there are very few moments that you are not sinning in one way or another. Do you in every moment of every day love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul , and strength? Do you every minute of every day love your neighbour as yourself?(Judging from the things you have said in this post, I'd say no).

So now tell me you who desire to boast in your keeping of the Law, and in your righteousness, what good is Christ to you? If you are so great, and holy in and of yourself, why do you need Christ?

Quote:
I have shown that statement of faith to professing Calvinists who have openly told me that they say "amen" to it. Amen?? Amen?? WHAT!?! God hates the majority of the world?!? God wants the majority of the world to live in sin and die in sin?!?!? WHAT?!?!? Christians are eternally secure no matter how much they sin, even if they sin every day??? LIAR!!! You have got to be kidding me!

Words cannot express how terribly grieved I am at such FALSE theology, which in my estimation, to say the lest, is from the very pits of hell!!



You have yet to show anything, as you have deceitfully cut and pasted the parts of what I have said to suit your purposes without answering any points.

I do not think I have ever said anything of the sort, and your name calling is very low, am I now become like those you belittle and mock in an attempt to tell them of Christ? Am I not your brother, and you say I am a LIAR?

But now your true colours are showing, sinless perfection huh? If you were utterly sinless as you claim, there would be no anger in your tone, there would be love, and grace even towards those you disagree with. But I have touched upon your golden calf, "free wiil and self salvation" and look at what rises to the top.

Again, you have not proven anything false but your state of sinlessness.

Quote:
I couldn't believe it when I heard Piper say that he continues to sin every single day,



Not all of us can ascend to your level Jesse, or should I call you jesus(one who saves)? as you purport to be without sin, and able to save yourself by your good deeds? There is One and only One who is without sin, and because God has imputed this to me by His grace and through faith, I can stand before the Father as holy, and blameless.

Quote:
There are LOTS of unfortinate and decieved believers today who believe in this TULIP nonsense theology, with their antiscriptural view of "limited atonement". They take away and lessen the most beautiful doctrine of the bible!!



But don't you limit the atonement as well? You say that not all men will be saved do you not? Well how dare you limit the atonement!!!

In your theology, there is no atonement, because the wrath according to you has not been satisfied unless you perfectly obey, thus making the Cross of no effect at all. There is no propitiation in your theology either from what I can tell, because man cannot have any peace with God unless he perfectly obeys the Law, thus making peace with God depend upon man's obedience. But what does the Bible say?
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]

Rom 5:9 Much more then, [b]being now justified by his blood,[/b] we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Quote:
Jesus died for some of you
God loves a few of you
God wants a few of you to repent and be saved

And they would not be inconsistent with their views if they preached like this:
God hates most of you
Jesus doesn't care about most of you
God wants most of you to live in sin and die in sin, and go to hell for our unavoidable sins.



Now can you show me where I ever said God did not love people? He does, but that does not mean that He will save everyone. Even in your view, not everyone will be saved, so why doesn't God override the free will of man and save him, if God loves everyone, and wants everyone to be saved?

Isn't the Lord limting the salvation message here-
Joh 10:26 But [b]ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,[/b] as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice,[/b] and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And [b]I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/b]

Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,[/b] but should raise it up again at the last day.
So is this all people? or is it limited?

Even your verses from Ezekiel are taken out of context, for who is God talking to in this passage-
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

It's not the world, or the Philistines, or the Hittites, or the Perizites, or any other nations, but Israel-
Eze 18:30 [b]Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel,[/b] every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

God does have a special love for those whom He has foreknown, this cannot be denied. Those whom He has foreknown will be justified, and glorified-
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Quote:
Yes, the TRUTH is far too BEAUTIFUL and WONDERFUL and GLORIOUS and HOPEFUL to let such TERRIBLE and AWEFUL and HORRIFIC views spread like a plague throughout the Church.



There is nothing beautiful about the gospel you preach Jesse, ther is no hope whatsoever. Man knows he cannot make himelf right with God, but all you do is tell him he can, and then condemn him because he's not, again, tell me why you need Christ in your version of the gospel. For all I hear is man' ability, man's ability. But if man were so able why does Christ need to bear man's sin? Why wasn't there any other way?

The glory of the Gospel is Christ dying for sinners according to the Scriptures, meaning He who knew no sin was made sin that those brought to faith would be made the righteousness of God in Him(Christ).

I see no mention of man's works in this equation, as man cannot save himself, and cannot make himself righteous enough to appear before God.

What greater truth could there be than, "we love Him, because He first loved us", or this-
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, [b]having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/b]

He did, not we did.






_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/22 3:23Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Not too long ago I had a big 'Ariminean - Calvinist' debate with one of my closest friends - it got quite heated with phrases such as "I thought you were a fundamentalist" and "you preach less than Christ" being used.

I came back to these forums and was brought almost to tears of joy at some posts with 'Calvinists' and 'Armineans' talking very reasonably (without compromising their views) about the state of the Church etc - I read the first 4-5 posts of this thread, and I am close to tears of dispare! How any one can try and claim the 'moral' high ground from the first few posters is beyond me - what a blemish this post is on these forums!

I know I haven't posted on here as long as some, but frankly I don't care. As it happens, I fall down on the 'Arminean' side of the fence, but not in the same way as this post. It's clear to me from Scripture that neither TULIP nor the full 'Arminean' view are 'right' but both require at some stage or another a weak explaining away of some Scriptures somewhere.

Now whilst I agree the type of OSAS teaching that is in the majority of churches today is dangerous, because it leads to widespread 'easy-beliveism' - but this is not the view of great Calvinist preachers like Whitfield etc.

Does anyone remember that Whitfield and Wesley had this argument out a couple of hundred years ago? It seems so pointless to me for it to continue, because both sides (even in the very first few posts in this thread!) just take one view of the other and twist it to an extreme - pointless.

I remind you of what Wesley entered in his journal about Whitfield:

"I met with George Whitfield today, he breathes nothing but peace and love."

Please, sort it out.

 2007/7/22 3:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jesse said: Complete and total repentance is absolutely necessary before God will forgive sin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No Jesse, fatih is the means by which a man is justified, and repentance is a fruit of that faith, not the cause of it.

On the day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd, and they cried out, "what must we do?" Did he tell them, "confess every sin you have ever committed to be saved"? or did he say, "repent, and be baptized"?



Roaringlamb,

Did you even read what I said and even read the scripture you quoted??

I said a man needed to repent.

Peter said they needed to repent.

Repentance is not confession. You don't need to confess every sin to be saved. That's impossible because it requires a perfect memory. Rather repentance is turning away from sin in your heart, which is an act of faith.

The scripture your quoted proved my point. I said sinners needed to repent in order to be saved. And the scripture you quoted showed sinners asking "what must we do to be saved" and Peter said "Repent" as the first thing.

Besides, if a person only has to intellectually "believe" to be saved, why didn't Peter say so? Peter never said believe, but rather "repent" and "be baptized".

Of coarse one must have faith, but true faith includes repentance.

That is why Jesus said unless you repent you perish. Because if you live in sin, and die in sin, you will judged in sin and will go to hell.

But if you fall in love Jesus, because of what He did for the world by dying on the cross, then you will give up your sinning, ie you'll repent and follow Him! Because you won't want to sin against Him anymore and grieve the Fathers heart.

True faith includes repentance, and true repentance includes faith. Repentance is an act of faith, and faith without repentance is not saving faith. The one with faith, will repent. And God forgives only when the two conditions are meet, repenting and believing.

Repenting and believing is what makes up true faith. Faith is not merely one without the other, but true saving faith is both believing and repenting.

 2007/7/22 3:31
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
"I met with George Whitfield today, he breathes nothing but peace and love."



And Whitefield said Wesley was aconfused Calvinist ;-)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/22 3:34Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
True faith includes repentance, and true repentance includes faith. Repentance is an act of faith, and faith without repentance is not saving faith. The one with faith, will repent. And God forgives only when the two conditions are meet, repenting and believing.



Yes, the regenerated heart wants to repent as it sees it has sinned against God, but that faith not only produces repentace, but also justification, and that justifiation produces sanctification.

And that justification is a one time declaration of freedom from guilt for all sin.

I think you and I are closer in some ways than we think :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/22 3:39Profile









 Re:

All I am saying is that a drunkard needs to repent (turn from drunkeness) to be forgiven.

A fornicator needs to repent (turn from fornication) to be forgiven.

A murderer needs to repent (turn from hatred) to be forgiven.

God will not forgive an active drunkard, an active fornicator, and active murder, but will only forgive a repentant drunkard, a repentant fornicator, a repentant murderer. They are not forgiven before (when they are active) but only after (when they are repentant).

 2007/7/22 3:42





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