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 Orthodox Statement of Faith?


[b]The Statement of Faith[/b]: [i]of confused individuals[/i]

We believe that God so hates the majority of the world that He did not give His Son for the whole world. (John 3:16)

We believe that God does not want the majority of the wicked to turn and live because He takes Sovereign pleasure in their death, therefore God secretly wills "sin ye, sin ye, and die" (Eze 33:11)

We believe that Jesus died only for us special few, and not for the sins of the whole world. (1John 4:9)

We believe that God is willing that the majority should perish, and that they should remain impentient in their sin. (2Pet 3:9)

We believe that those that the Lord has "bought" with His blood are eternally and unconditionally secure, and cannot "bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2Pet 2:1)

We believe that a "worst thing" will not come, and cannot come, upon the elect even if they fail to "sin no more"(John 5:14) because we are tempted beyond what we are able (1Cor 10:13) and God's commandments are impossible (1John 5:3), therefore Christians sin "every day in word, thought, and deed" but are not "of the devil" (1John 3:8) even though they daily continue in sin.

Does anyone say amen to this statement of faith?

Does anyone have any objections to this statement of faith?

 2007/7/21 1:25
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Orthodox Statement of Faith?

As I have said before, when you cannot refute, you belittle, and stoop to name calling. Are you not slipping out of your perfection Jesse? Are you sure you are headed to Heaven now, as you say any sin can negate all of what Christ has purchased, and will send that person to Hell. Meanwhile every child of God has within them such a brood of vipers that if not for the righteousness of Christ alone before the Father none should have peace to appear before Him.

Brother how is this in love, and for the edification of this family?

I have answered your accusations at every turn, and the best you can do is mock not only myself, but many who have gone before us, and many whom are dear friends.

I object on the basis of your humanistic and emotion driven statements that completely disregard context for the majority of Scriptures you have put up, and unless I am convinced by Scripture alone, here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God.(Yeah it's borrowed, but fitting as the battle you and I have been waging is none different than what Luther and Erasmus fought some 500 years ago). But should you continue to bring out that old corspe of man's goodness, and ability, by the grace of God I hope to put it back in the tomb where it belongs, and so long as you should threaten the crux of Christianity which is justification by faith alone through Christ alone, I will fight back, and I do hope others will as well as you are trying to undermine the faith of many, and destroy Christ's work for His Church.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/21 1:56Profile









 Re:

I think that the scriptures I listed refute the statements.

I am horrified that people actually believe this stuff, even though they don't say it in such strong language.

Roaringlamb, you don't believe this stuff do you?

Do you disagree with any of these false statements?

Or do you say "amen" to all of them?

 2007/7/21 2:10









 bro roaringlamb

before you even think of answering Jed Morrell's response, think to yourself, why?

its just a waste of time, as I'm beginning to view this whole forum experience, what with the wacked out, weird links that "grannie annie" is posting, and Corey H's "news" items, not to mention the "sermons" we get from Jed Morrell, this forum is turning into a real hellhole....thank God, the website has the sermon downloads.

very very depressing and grievous.

brother, don't even waste a minute responding.

 2007/7/21 2:18









 Re: bro roaringlamb 2

if you think of men precious men of God like Evan Roberts, and Duncan Campbell and read them or listen to them side by side with Morrell, how the difference in annointing and love of Christ is apparrent, its the difference between night and day, light and darkness.

[img]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myalbum/photos/982.jpg[/img]


[img]http://openairoutreach.com/albums/album04/Nate_Kellum.sized.jpg[/img]

 2007/7/21 2:26









 Re:

roaringlamb and worm4christ, if you believe these things, why don't you just publicly say so and let people examine your views under scripture?? If you believe something, you shouldn't hide it.

But I love the both of you very much and I hope you don't believe in any of those points I listed. Who can expect love to be silent where there are such falsehoods as these being spread like a plague through the Church??

But I know I am not the only one grieved at heart that people believe the kind of antiscriptural stuff I listed in the statement of faith.

That stuff is really bad news, and ought to cause all Christians to rise up against it out of love for souls, concern for the truth, and for the preciousness of the true character of God.

We ought to grieve that views like that have somehow survived down through the ages! So many believe in their traditional views rather then in scriptural views!

But I do praise God that great men, who were sound and clear headed, like John Wesley, John Fletcher, Charles Finney, George Fox, and other great men took such strong stances against such horrific beliefs.

"Unity whenever possible, but truth at any cost" Martin Luther

(PS. I'm confused as to why you would even compare me to any great man, especially men like Duncan or Evans. Of course I am absolutely nothing compared to great men, I'm a nobody... And if you ever want to know anything about your own nothingness, feel free to compare yourself to Wesley, Fletcher, Finney, or Fox)

 2007/7/21 2:33
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Orthodox Statement of Faith?

Quote:
We believe that God so hates the majority of the world that He did not give His Son for the whole world. (John 3:16)



I have never said that God does not love the world, but that love is manifest in differing ways. Mercy is what all men have in that they are able to breathe, and live, and have crops etc. But this love does not bring anyone to Christ as the natural man will eat all this up, and then create his own idol to worship rather than worship his Creator.

Note also what this is saying, and to whom. This verse was spoken to a Jewish religious leader who was of the thought that the Messiah would save only the Jews and leave the Gentiles to perish as was common thought then. Yet Christ says, "no Nicodemas, God so loved all nations and types of people that He sent His Son."

Then comes the main part, "that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish..." Notice it does not say "whosoever will be saved", but "whosoever believeth", and because we know that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, and that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, believing is not something man can do on his own.

Quote:
We believe that Jesus died only for us special few, and not for the sins of the whole world. (1John 4:9)



Here is the verse you use-
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Now nowhere does it say anything about Christ dying for sins of the whole world, and also, who is the "us" and the "we" referring to? If it is unsaved, then you have universal redemption, if it is to Christians, you have encouragement to them, in and through Christ and his work.

Quote:
We believe that God is willing that the majority should perish, and that they should remain impentient in their sin. (2Pet 3:9)



2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, who is this adressed to?
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
And to further show the audience,
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:[/b]

Who did Peter write the First EPistle to?
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:[/b] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Unless I am mistaken Peter is adressing Christians. Therefore, we must look at what he is saying to them.

So looking at this verse in the context of the Epistle-
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is God long suffering towards? "us"
Who is the "us"? Christians
Any of who? in context, it would be Christians, as Peter is explaining to the believers why Christ has not returned yet, it is to finish bringing in His people.

Quote:
We believe that those that the Lord has "bought" with His blood are eternally and unconditionally secure, and cannot "bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2Pet 2:1)



2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Where does it say anything about being bought by blood? It is true that it says these were purchased, but by whom?

Unfortunately, I have to use Greek here. The term for Lord is not kurios which is found in salvation or redemption passages, but rather despotes from which we get the term despot. This term is along the lines of a sovereign master. Now did not Christ purchase all the World, and is He not Ruler over all mankind saved and unsaved? Did He not purchase the field, to gain the treasure?

So yes Christ owns these men, as their Creator, and one whom they will answer to, bt there is no mention of them being redeemed. Even the Greek word for bought, which is agorazo, when it is used in salvation passages always has the element by which this happened. Take for instance-
1Co 6:20 For [b]ye are bought with a price:[/b] therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's

There only two passages where this word is used to point to a purchase of salvation, and your passage is not one of them.

Quote:
We believe that a "worst thing" will not come, and cannot come, upon the elect even if they fail to "sin no more"(John 5:14) because we are tempted beyond what we are able (1Cor 10:13) and God's commandments are impossible (1John 5:3), therefore Christians sin "every day in word, thought, and deed" but are not "of the devil" (1John 3:8) even though they daily continue in sin.



Your first verse-
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

How this applies I do not know, as this was prior to the work of the Cross, and the payment for sin, and seems out of place in this discussion.

Next one-
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

This is pointing to God's gracious work in our trials brother, and should be used to encourage not to beat upon. The word for temptation does not have any link to sinful activities, but rather trials, adn Paul is saying that God is faithful in the trials He allows to also present a way out of them.

Next-
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes, but this again is written to Christians who have the Spirit to help keep them, and also these are already justified, having the ordinances against them blotted out and nailed to His cross(Col 2:13,14)

And if a Christian never sins again, what of this-
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Of course the sin unto death would be the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would it not?

Your last one-
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes he that commits sin is imitating the devil, this does not say he belongs to him. but Christ destroyed or loosed(LIT) the bonds of those works. The point here is that no one who says he is a Christian will go on in an unrepentant attitude towards sin, he cannot because there is a new nature in him that causes him to grieve and repent.

As far as i have explained these verse properly, I say AMEN.

One last point, the message you are preaching does not need Christ to have died, and would be welcomed by many who seek to justify themselves according tou their own good works. but you have blurred justification adn sanctification, adnmade them one and the same, when they are different.

True justification cannot but lead to sanctification, but God does not re-open the books and retry you for the sin you have already been redeemed from. We do not operate as criminals once we are justified, but as sons, and thus we have access throgh Christ and His work and His merit, and this will produce sanctification in the life of the child of God.





_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/21 3:25Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
But I do praise God that great men, who were sound and clear headed, like John Wesley, John Fletcher, Charles Finney, George Fox, and other great men took such strong stances against such horrific beliefs.



Ahh yes wondrous men. Only two on that list held to anything remotley Biblical so far as salvation is concerned, and they would not be Fox and Finney.

Fox believed that all men had an "inner light", and thus did not need even Bibles to tell them how to live, ads they could simply trust the light within. Only problem, is that the light within natural man is the light of deception.

Finney lied to get ordained. He said that he agreed with all the Wesminster Confession, but once he was ordained, he began to tear apart and ridicule those who helped him.

Sadly, much of what these men preached did not need Christ to die for sin and raise for justification as man could do it on his own, or at least with a little help.

At least Wesley, and Fletcher somewhat believed in justification by faith alone. Sadly though the Church of England was never really out of their veins or out of Rome, and much of their theology reflects that.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/21 3:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We believe that Jesus died only for us special few, and not for the sins of the whole world. (1John 4:9)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is the verse you use-
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.



Sorry about that, I meant this scripture:

1Jo 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and [b]not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [/b]

--------------------

Quote:

We believe that those that the Lord has "bought" with His blood are eternally and unconditionally secure, and cannot "bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2Pet 2:1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Where does it say anything about being bought by blood? It is true that it says these were purchased, but by whom?



"It is true that it says these were purchased, but by whom?"

"denying the [b]Lord[/b] that [b]bought[/b] them"

Quote:
One last point, the message you are preaching does not need Christ to have died, and would be welcomed by many who seek to justify themselves according tou their own good works



That's absurd. Good works cannot save those who have already sinned. No amount of repenting and believing will ever wipe away guilt, only God's grace can. God cannot forgive without the shedding of blood. But now that Christ's blood has been shed for the whole world, God can forgive all men who repent and believe.

 2007/7/21 3:35
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re: Orthodox Statement of Faith?

Sort of fail to understand the motive/point behind this thread... why was it created exactly, to cause further argumentation concerning Calvinism vs. Arminism?

Must we?... These are unedifying debates, I don't think I've ever witnessed a fruitful debate concerning these doctrinal disputations. Both sides of the camps are in mud up to their knees (unable to move), and when they get in arguments there's mud flying everywhere.

 2007/7/21 3:52Profile





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