Could it be possible that we just don't understand God's definition of love? Could it be that we are humans and God is God and we simply don't grasp how that electing sinners to hell unconditionally is a 'loving' thing to do? Could it be that we cannot trust our 'sense' of love and hate? Is it a fair argument to contend that since the fall of man his idea and concept of love has been corrupted and had we not fallen we would understand how God hating sinners is the loving thing to do and is in no wise in contradiction to Him being love?
When a Christian is truly Born Again they have the Holy Spirit living inside. All of their senses (perceptions) and understanding are brought back into square with the way God designed them. This is why the argument that "we don't understand God's love" is impossible. "His love is different than our love, etc." is an answer used in the polemic arguments of the 16th and 17th century.
Think upon this for a moment; if I (we) cannot trust our (my) God given perception of love that was resident in my human nature and regenerated in Christ- then all of this is a sham. Would God seek to deceive man into believing love was one thing when in reality it was something else? Would He so deceive the regenerate that they could not trust their sense of love and hate? If we know not how to love- how can we fulfill the commands? This is the madness of trying to obscure the meaning of the word 'love' or any other word. Whether it be adape, phileo, stergos or eros- we have a human sense of what these things means and that 'sense' in the regenerate is reliable.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2007/7/19 22:24||Profile|
Great post Robert.
While I always thought Luke 14:26 was hyperbole, Psalm 5:5 does appear to say God hates sinners, or at least is capable of it.
Care to break down this scripture?
It was the thread starters original question.
Once again, please do not cast me into any certain group, lot, or camp regarding this or any other topic
I am just tossing things out there to see what the saints have to say.
| 2007/7/19 22:38||Profile|
| Re: God hate sinners as well as sin?|
I am so glad that God LOVES evildoers, because "[i]there is none righteous, no not one[/i]" -- and He died for us "[i]WHILE we were YET sinners[/i]!"
| 2007/7/19 22:41||Profile|
Brother Robert, you nailed it in your post above, we have reformulated His love into "adape".
:-D very good ! Adapted a love that we "think" is His.
| 2007/7/19 22:56|
God loves everyone in that God wills the good of all, God wants everyone to come to repentance and be saved.
| 2007/7/20 0:01|
but Gods "hate" should not be confused with our for the most of the time sinful hate. When God hates something its not when i hate something. Gods hate is Holy and Good. I believe God hates the sinner, but at the same time he loves him so much he sent his only begotten son to be slaughtered on a tree.
This is an awesome point to this matter. God's Holy Hate is something in which is Holy, our hate is corrupted and leads us into sever iniquity. The Lord God's hate is incorruptible.
Something good to point out is the Bible does not teach us how to hate, but how to love. And is a command.
These verses ~~~~Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.~~~~ (Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,1135 and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot, be my disciple.) As RobertW pointed out, the Greek meaning for hate miseo carries a meaning that spans from detest or love less. These verses to me also deal with love and devotion towards Christ. (Placing Our Lord first) This to me is where we find freedom from our idols. For instance so-called homosexual believers who claim to worship Christ but are not willing to give up their homosexuality. So they through this verse find themselves unworthy of Christ's atonement, for their unwillingness to give homosexuality up for Christ. Or the alcoholic or drug addicts ect. This goes all the way down to placing your own family member before Christ, then becomes an idol. Like fishing isn't bad, but if your not willing to give your fishing up for Christ if he so requires, this now exposes an idol, something you place before Christ.
Back to hate. We are not commanded to hate, but commanded to love, and the word of God teaches us how to walk properly down the roads of love. RobertW warned (that a person who hates his brother is in darkness (I John 2:9)
To hate sin is a motivating way to fight against the darkness. But to Biblically Love is far greater and the best way. This I know is what we are to strive for. Remember the two greatest commandments. This leads to the greater ways of defeating all darkness. The Lord Love and bless you all. I pray he bring greater fires of this Holy Love to us all and bring us closer to him in greater levels.
| 2007/7/20 3:13|
Matthew Henry believed God had a hatred of a certain type of sinner.
Matthew Henry's Commentary on Psalm 5:5
As an encouragement to his prayers against his enemies; they were wicked men, and therefore enemies to God, and such as he had not pleasure in. See here. (1.) The holiness of God's nature. When he says, Thou art not a God that has pleasure in wickedness, he means, Thou art a God that hates it, as directly contrary to thy infinite purity and rectitude, and holy will. Though the workers of iniquity prosper, let none thence infer that God has pleasure in wickedness, no, not in that by which men pretend to honour him, as those do that hate their brethren, and cast them out, and say, Let the Lord be glorified. God has no pleasure in wickedness, though covered with a cloak of religion. Let those therefore who delight in sin know that God has no delight in them; nor let any say, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God is not the author of sin, neither shall evil dwell with him, that is, it shall not always be countenanced and suffered to prosper. Dr. Hammond thinks this refers to that law of Moses which would not permit strangers, who persisted in their idolatry, to dwell in the land of Israel. (2.) The justice of his government. The foolish shall not stand in his sight, that is, shall not be smiled upon by him, nor admitted to attend upon him, nor shall they be acquitted in the judgment of the great day. The workers of iniquity are very foolish. Sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; not fools of God's making (those are to be pitied), for he hates nothing that he has made, but fools of their own making, and those he hates. Wicked people hate God; justly therefore are they hated of him, and it will be their endless misery and ruin. Those whom thou hatest thou shalt destroy; particularly two sorts of sinners, who are here marked for destruction: - [1.] Those that are fools, that speak leasing or lying, and that are deceitful. There is a particular emphasis laid on these sinners (Rev_21:8), All liars, and (Psa_22:15), Whosoever loves and makes a lie; nothing is more contrary than this, and therefore nothing more hateful to the God of truth. [2.] Those that are cruel: Thou wilt abhor the bloody man; for inhumanity is no less contrary, no less hateful, to the God of mercy, whom mercy pleases. Liars and murderers are in a particular manner said to resemble the devil and to be his children, and therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his church, men perfectly lost to all virtue and honour; and the worse they are the surer we may be of their ruin in due time.
| 2007/7/20 8:49||Profile|
| Re: God hate sinners as well as sin?|
There are certain rules of biblical interpretation that are being clearly overlooked by those in the "God hates..." camp. One important rule is the fact that you do not and cannot make doctrine out of certain portions of the Psalms. Certainly David was moved upon by the Spirit of God and wrote under inspiration. However, you must also understand that many of the Psalms are David's raw human heart being poured out to the Lord. The nature of many of the Psalms are David, "Pour(ing) out my (his) soul..." Psalms 42:4.
If someone were to overhear my personal prayer time with the Lord and attempt to make doctrine out of everything I say, well let's just say that would be some messed up doctrine! :-)
Much of the Psalms are just that, David's pesonal conversations with the Lord. Therefore the Psalms are not meant to be primarily a source of doctrine, but a glimpse into what a Davidic heart of worship looks like. It looks like a man whoes heart is passionately honest before God.
So if one is to take Psalms 5:5 which states
"you hate all who do wrong. " and make doctrine out of it . . . then you must do the same with David's statement in Psalms 31:6 which states
"I hate those who cling to worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD." In this passage it is not God whom David is saying hates the sinner, but it is David stating that HE hates the sinner. Therefore, if one is to make doctrine out of Psalms 5:5 and say that GOD hates sinners, we must also make doctrine out of Psalms 31:6. That would mean that we must hate sinners as well. Yet this clearly contradicts Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27;35 etc... which basically instruct us to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."
My point? If the emotionally charged, honest and passionate worship of David (which were never meant to be teaching or doctrinal statements) contradict passages of scripture which were clearly meant to be doctrinal in nature . . . than we must simply understand that David's emotionally charged Psalms were not meant to set doctrinal precedents but were meant to be a window into a life of honest, gut-level worship and devotion to God.
You must always take the whole counsel of God as doctrine and not a sprinkling of unclear verses that seem to contradict the whole.
These are just my thoughts...
| 2007/7/20 12:07||Profile|
That sounds mighty liberal to me. It says what it says and God is in control.
| 2007/7/20 12:42|
My dear brother . . . if you are correct then please explain the seeming contradiction to me. I would be honored to hear your response. I would also challenge you to take the Psalms of David and write up a doctrinal statement based upon every proclamation David made. You would find many seeming contradictions and elements of humanity. Any scholar will tell you that the Psalms primary purpose is not for establishing doctrine. And FYI I am about as far from being liberal as there can be. I am not a KJV worshipper - but I hold unswervingly to the word of God.
| 2007/7/20 12:59||Profile|