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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Moral Government Overview

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 Moral Government Overview

This is a pretty good statement of faith I found on a website. It is respecting Moral Government Theology:

- God created man for intimate relationship.

- God and man relate interactively as personalities in real time.

- All sin consists in sinning. There can be no moral character but in moral acts.

- The power to do the contrary is essential to free agency. A free moral agent may always act contrary to any influence, not destructive to his freedom, that may be brought to bear upon him.

- Ability limits responsibility. Men are responsible only so far as they have adequate power to do what is required of them, or that they are responsible for nothing not under the control of the will.

- Christ died for all people in the same sense.

- His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all.

- Each must meet the conditions of repentance, faith and continuance in the life of faith.

- Salvation is a present experience in the Holy Spirit--Christ in us.

- By forgiveness and spiritual transformation God declares right and makes right repentant sinners, not by imputing the character of Christ to them.

- God graciously forgives past sins. The New Testament says nothing about present forgiveness for future sins.

- The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

 2007/7/19 6:22

Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2676
Nottingham, England

 Re: Moral Government Statement of Faith

They lack the use of scripture in what they are saying, and assume that people know, or will read for themselves, about the Romans 7 and 8 'experience'.

Still, it helps, I think.

God bless.

 2007/7/19 6:53Profile


Yea it totally lacks scripture. I don't think they intended it as a "statement of faith" like I said it was, or else they would have listed scriptures.

I was thinking about going through it myself and filling it with scriptures. But even without, it's a good overview of moral government theology. (I did list a lot of scriptures in my post: A Vindication of Moral Government Theology)

 2007/7/19 6:58

 Re: Moral Government Statement of Faith

A moral govermment is not an avenue to the Lord. A moral government and a person standing for a moral government is a result of HIS presence in their life.

The lack of concern for moral laws and HIS righteousness is:
John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 2007/7/19 10:33

 Re: Morman Statement of Faith

This is the Mormon Statement of Faith, it sounds very much like Moral Government, you know why....because neither of them are the Gospel!

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Under the direction of your Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:1–2). Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ overcame death for you. Everyone, the righteous and wicked alike, will receive the gift of Resurrection

After physical death, the reuniting of the spirit with the perfected physical body of flesh and bones. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected.
resurrection.? When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will serve as the final Judge ( Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).

Heavenly Father loves you and wants you to return to live with Him when you die. This is only possible through the Savior Jesus Christ ( John 14:6).

Through the Atonement
The suffering and death of Jesus Christ, through which resurrection is provided to all mortals and eternal life is offered to those who have faith in Christ and repent of their sins.
Atonement?—performed by Jesus Christ with His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by His suffering and the voluntary surrender of His life on the cross–He saves you from your sins as you sincerely repent and follow Him. ( 1 Peter 2:21) .

Jesus Christ lived a perfect life while on the earth, approximately 2,000 years ago. Leading by example, He taught how to pray and how to humbly serve others, and He demonstrated the manner in which all should be baptized.

If you follow His example as closely as possible, you will not only find joy in your life, but you will someday return to live with Him and your Father in Heaven. Specifically, you are to:

Have faith in Him ( Mark 11:22–24).
Repent of your sins ( Acts 2:38).
Receive baptism ( John 3:3–6), the

Gift of the Holy Ghost
The “gift” of the Holy Ghost is the privilege of enjoying His constant companionship if God’s commandments are followed. It is given after baptism to members of the Church by a priesthood holder who puts his hands on the head of the baptized person and blesses him or her to receive the Holy Ghost.
gift of the Holy Ghost?, and the other

A sacred rite or ceremony performed by the power of the priesthood and intended to bless God’s children. Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation. Other ordinances, such as administering to the sick, constitute gifts from God to His children which are not essential for salvation. Many ordinances have symbolic meaning.
ordinances? of the

The “good news” of God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. At the center of His plan is the Atoning sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, in whom alone salvation is possible. In its fulness, the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants whereby human beings can be forgiven of sin, overcome the world, and attain immortality and eternal life in the kingdom of God.
gospel? of Jesus Christ.
Keep His

Instructions given by God to His children to prepare them for eternal life in the world to come.
commandments? ( John 14:15).
Today, as in the days of Jesus Christ, there are certain principles of the gospel that people are to learn to obey.

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are:

First, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The process of experiencing sincere regret or sorrow for wrongdoing, confessing one’s sin and asking for forgiveness, making restitution for any damage done, and committing not to repeat the sin. Repentance is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, who paid the price for the sins of all humanity.

An essential step in receiving forgiveness of sins. Through baptism and confirmation by priesthood authority, we become members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Baptism is by immersion, meaning that the person being baptized is briefly submerged in water. Baptism shows our willingness to follow Christ’s example and to make covenants with God.
baptism? by immersion for the remission of sins.

Laying on of Hands
The act by a priesthood holder of placing hands on the head of a person to bless, anoint, confirm, ordain, or heal (Acts 6:5-7).
laying on of hands? for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[b]The gospel? of Jesus Christ is Heavenly Father’s plan for the happiness and salvation? of His children and is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to show us how to live meaningful and happy lives and experience eternal joy after this life. Through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, you can become clean from sin and enjoy peace of conscience. To become worthy to live in Heavenly Father’s presence after this life and to receive this peace and strength, you must learn and follow the principles and ordinances? of the gospel. The first principles of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. The first ordinances of the gospel are baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?. After you learn and follow the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, you must seek to follow Christ’s example throughout the remainder of your life. This continued faithfulness is called “enduring to the end.” [/b]
God sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, into the world so that all of His children would have the possibility of returning to live in His presence after they die. Only through the Savior’s grace and mercy can you become clean from sin so that you can live in your Heavenly Father’s presence ( 1 Nephi 10:20–21; 3 Nephi 27:19; Moses 6:57).

[b]Because of Christ’s Atonement? and Resurrection?, all people will be brought back into the presence of the Lord to be judged according to their works and their desires and according to the laws of justice and mercy. The Savior satisfied the demands of justice for those who repent of their sins and endeavor to keep all of His commandments when He stood in our place and suffered the penalty for all sins. Because of the selfless act of the Atonement, Christ can plead with the Father on your behalf. Heavenly Father can apply mercy, withhold eternal consequences from you and welcome you into His presence. However, Jesus did not eliminate your personal responsibility. You must show that you accept Christ and that you have faith in Him by keeping His commandments? and obeying the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. [/b]

 2007/7/19 11:02

 Re: Moral Government Statement of Faith

The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

What about vs 1 through 13?

Paul clearly makes the case that, when we were outside of Christ (not justified) we were married to the law. We were bound to it like a man is to a woman in marriage. Therefore, we were under its condemnation because we did not keep the whole law. In order to be free from this marriage to the law, someone had to die. When we believed the Gospel, we entered into the death of Christ.

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Since we were baptized (now identified) with His death we have died to the law. We are free from this marriage to the law and its condemnation.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We are in Christ. His death is our death. His resurrection is our resurrection. The law can no more condemn us, than it can condemn Christ.

That is why Paul makes the huge statement in Romans 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation is a state of being, not a feeling. It is the result of a judgment against. Because I am in Christ, I am not under the condemnation of the Law (it is a fact, not a feeling, not an is a statement of fact for those who have believed the Gospel, regardless of how they feel.) The Gospel is first and foremost an objective fact of what Christ has done.

And walking after the Spirit is a description of those who are now in Christ Jesus, it is not a qualifier.

That is why substitution is so important. If you lose substitution, you lose the Gospel! Period!

 2007/7/19 11:37

 Re: Moral Government Statement of Faith

God graciously forgives past sins. The New Testament says nothing about present forgiveness for future sins.

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If this scripture is read within the context of Romans 2 and 3, we can see that it is not talking about "my past sins".

In Romans 2 Paul is making a case. He explaining the fact that " man cannot and could NEVER be obeying the law. We know this is what he is trying to prove because of Romans 3:20

Therefore....everything Paul said up to that word (Therefore) is his evidence and proof to back up this next statement...

Quote: the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That is his conclusion for both Jew and Gentile. Since the fall, no Jew or Gentile has ever been justified in the eyes of God by the keeping of the Law.

But now...the righteousness of God without (apart from) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

He then shows (and you can go on to read in Romans 3) that Jesus Christ is the True Righteousness of God, and faith in Him justifies a man in God's sight.

So then the question arises, what about all those before Christ. How were their sins forgiven? What about Abraham and his sin, Noah, Rahab, David, Sarah, Isaiah, etc. They all died before Christ.

They all believed on a coming Christ. They looked ahead to the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. They of course did not see what we see, but like Abraham, they believed in the promise, and their faith was counted unto them as righteousness.

In the mind and heart of God, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God's forbearance with the sins of the Past was made possible because He knew Christ would come and satisfy the just requirements of the law.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

So the forgiveness of sins past is not talking about "my individual sins" that I committed before I was saved. It is talking about the mercy of God upon all mankind because of the eventual manifestation of the True Lamb of God who took away the Sin of the World.

 2007/7/19 12:31

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Moral Government Statement of Faith

- All sin consists in sinning. There can be no moral character but in moral acts.

The Pharisees were some of the most moral people around, yet Jesus told them they were sons of their father the devil, and told one of their main men, "you must be born again."

Morals cannot save us, all they do is create either self righteousness, or despondency.

- The power to do the contrary is essential to free agency. A free moral agent may always act contrary to any influence, not destructive to his freedom, that may be brought to bear upon him.

Sounds like good old Pelagius-(The following is from an article) It may be found here
[url=]Pelagianism In The Formation and Reformation...[/url]

[i]Pelagius argued with Augustine that God would not command us in the Law to live a particular way if he did not also give us this ability. He wrote to Augustine that Adam represented Adam only and that man cannot be placed on trial because of someone else. "Adam's sin merely set an ill example, which [man] has been quick to follow. Hence they almost all need to be set right…but after baptism man has full power and duty to keep the divine law."
This belief logically brings Pelagius to the conclusion that justification in vicarious atonement cannot be true either, because another man cannot represent the punishment of someone else's sins.

Man is responsible for the keeping of the law and his resistance to sin by himself. The obvious sinfulness in man in the fallen creation must have an ability to not sin, it is only that they tend to sin because we are born in a society where evil prevails. Men are born innocent, but the society that is evil seems to prevail upon them causing them to be bad.[/i]

- Christ died for all people in the same sense.

Then I suppose all will be saved then, and if one person is not, then this line is disproved. Also, if Christ died for the sins of all men, is not unbelief a sin? So then why do any perish for unbelief?

- His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all.

Well this is heresy plain and simple, and the idea that anyone would give credence to this view shows either a lack of discernment, or a misunderstanding of sin, and their own salvation.

How do you answer these Scriptures-
Isa 53:5 But [b]he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.[/b]

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: [b]when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,[/b] he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 [b]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For [b]this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/b]

Heb 9:28 So [b]Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;[/b] and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

- By forgiveness and spiritual transformation God declares right and makes right repentant sinners, not by imputing the character of Christ to them.

This says we are justified by faith alone-
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And also, if Christ's obedience is not imputed to us, how can we stand before God, or have any hope of Heaven?

- The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

This is really based upon a misunderstanding of indwelling sin. This verse alone shows that this is Paul speaking as a new creation, Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

no man that is not regenerate would care about the law of God, nor of pleasing God. The controversy within would not be present as an unsaved man has nothing within to battle the sin he does, or cause this battle.

Consider Paul's words in Galatians-
Gal 5:17 For [b]the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.[/b]

It would be foolish to say that he is speaking as an unsaved man here as well would it not?

Here is the bottom line, men love the law as a means of righteousness. They can use it as a means of boasting and belittling others who are "not as spiritual as they are." but if one would take the time to understand sin and its complete and utter ruinous effect upon man, man would never seek to be justified by anything other than someone else's righteousness.

There are many different religions who would be able to put somethng up similar to this as a means of righteousness. For they do not need Christ as their righteousness either. The Muslims believe in works, the Buddhists believe in works, the Jews believe in works and on and on, but God requires a true and holy righteousness. If you want to try to get this on your own through works of the flesh, have at it, but Paul said,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: [b]for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/b]

By doing this as well, you are saying that Christ is not enough, and you are opening yourself up to the warning given in both Hebrews 6:6, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

And Hebrews 10:29
"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

You see these Jews were going back to works of the sacrificial system as a means of justification. They were saying in essence that Christ's death was for nothing, as is Jesse's post, and this is very dangerous ground to be slipping toward.

patrick heaviside

 2007/7/19 12:40Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


One other point,

If you are preaching this Jesse you are preaching a false gospel. For look at Paul's words here-
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that [b]Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;[/b]
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That is the main crux of the Gospel. if you are believing that in fact Christ did not die for anyones' sins, I give you Paul's words about preaching another Gospel-

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from [b]our Lord Jesus Christ,[/b]
Gal 1:4 [b]Who gave himself for our sins,[/b] that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6 [b]I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.[/b]

patrick heaviside

 2007/7/19 12:53Profile


Main Entry: morality
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: ethics
Synonyms: chastity, conduct, decency, ethicality, ethicalness, gentleness, godliness, goodness, habits, honesty, honor, ideals, incorruptibility, incorruption, integrity, justice, manners, moral code, morals, mores, philosophy, principle, principles, probity, purity, rectitude, righteousness, rightness, saintliness, standards, uprightness, virtue

Before we can arrive the truth we must get on the same page. Is the above definition is what one would call morality. Are you saying the Pharisees were moral people.

The Pharisees did even know the Word the of God “the OLD TESTAMENT at that time, well enough to realize that author and finisher of the NEW TESTAMENT, THE WORD, JESUS, was fulfilling scripture before their very eyes when he read Isaiah 61 to them.

Now if we arrive at the fact that the Pharisees were not actually a moral people and only pretended to be, honored HIM with their lips but their hearts were far from him, then where does the philosophy and the idea come from that when people stand for a moral government that they are acting like Pharisees? I’ll tell you where it comes from, the Pharisees. This is a lie from the devil to destroy people. Where is no vision, my people perish he said in Hosea
Hos 4:5-6
5 You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother-
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,

 2007/7/19 13:10

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