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layman
Member



Joined: 2007/7/15
Posts: 2


 Re: Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

Brother Abraham,

You make an interesting case for Election but as far as it would fit into one’s theology, a plain reading of the text is all that is required.

However, in trying to make a case for Calvin’s doctrine of election I would like to say that election in Scripture is always to a specific end, i.e. inheritance, adoption. Election is never to the general end of salvation. I have never read anywhere that I was saved by election. The doctrine of election, as expressed by Calvin is based on his understanding of the decretive will of God, in that God decrees everything to happen by foreordination.

“But since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 6

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:” Confession of Faith III,

The problem is that Calvinism bases God’s foreknowledge on His decreeing everything beforehand, which is how Calvin understood God to know all things, the same as Augustine.

If this were true, then God cannot know anything unless it was decreed. However, God’s foreknowledge is not based on His decreeing everything before it takes place. He knows all things by virtue of His omniscience, not prescience, and His omniscience is not dependant upon any decree. If God created nothing His knowledge of all things would still be infinite

God knows all things that have happened or will happen, even to the point of would have happened had certain conditions been met as in Matthew 11:21 – 23. He knows what man thinks, has done and will do, under any circumstance; this comes from His omniscience, not from any decree beforehand. God knew man would disobey. That does not mean He decreed man to disobey for his own sovereign pleasure.

“The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree… God not only foresaw the fall of the first man and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it,” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 7.

Man sinned all on his own, without any decree of God, by his own lust. James 1:14, 15.

God’s sovereignty is not the causation of all that happens. Calvin believing God to decree everything that happens raises serious issues. The problem of evil was decreed of God. By causing man to sin and then punishing man for that sin calls the character of God into question. God predestined other religions to deceive the people. God decrees man to murder, to rape, to thieving, and to lawlessness in the world.

And one is to believe all this so that God can remain sovereign?

Was He not sovereign when Satan rebelled?

Was He not sovereign when man rebelled?

Was he not sovereign when Israel rebelled?

My assurance does not lie in the sovereignty
( power ) of God; it lies on the nature of God, in that He is just, and merciful, He is faithful and true and above all He loves me; for God is love

The Decretive Will of God is the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ and the judgment of the wicked. The Perceptive Will of God is what He desires of us. The Permissive Will of God is in what he does not prevent. It is with this understanding that all falls within the sovereign will of God. God permits many things to happen. This does not mean He decreed them to happen.

God does not force men to sin; neither does He force men to be saved.

 2007/7/17 1:28Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God’s sovereignty is not the causation of all that happens. Calvin believing God to decree everything that happens raises serious issues. The problem of evil was decreed of God. By causing man to sin and then punishing man for that sin calls the character of God into question. God predestined other religions to deceive the people. God decrees man to murder, to rape, to thieving, and to lawlessness in the world.



The danger with what you are posting his is that you blame God for man's sin, when man sinned at the instigation of Satan. God could have never allowed sin to enter the picture, but He did, because Christ must come as He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

God never made man sin as God cannot be tempted with evil, netiher does he tempt any man, and as you posted each man sins when he is drawn by his own lusts. But God did not make man evil at all, rather man was made good, but after the fall, man became incapable of spiritual life, as he is dead in sin, and a slave to sin. but God is not to be blamed for this, Adam and Eve were the only two humans who had a truly free will, and they chose to sin, they chose to believe the lie.

The following is taken from "The History and theology of Calvinism" by Dr. Curt Daniel
[i]God cannot be blamed for sin - He is not the” author of evil”. But it was equally true that God foreordained the existence of sin in a blameless manner for His own glory - He permitted sin to exist. Now this is the paradigm for providence and temptation. Simply put, what God does in time through providence is a reflection of what He did in eternity through predestination. That is, God now permits sin but He does not tempt us to sin.

But the sovereign God is in control of providence and all creatures. Hence, He uses Second Causes or means to carry out His purposes. In other words, God Himself does not tempt; He simply allows others to do the tempting. He sovereignly allows Satan and the world and our sinful natures do the tempting. That is their nature. God simply uses those natures, while His nature remains holy. And in this way He tests us to see what is in us (Deut, 8:2). God tests us by sovereignly permitting us to be tempted.

We see this illustrated in two cases in Scripture. First, 2 Sam. 24:1 says, “The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel and He moved David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah “(KJV). The parallel account in I Chron. 21:1 says, “And Satan stood up against
Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” Now some translation! render the first, “it incited David”, and others suggest that the “he” is really Satan. Not so, for Satan is not even
mentioned. No, God incited David. But how? Not directly, for God does not tempt to evil. God
was testing David. So God let Satan tempt David to do evil. David lacked faith at this moment
and succumbed to temptation. He failed the test. Our point is that God used Satan to do the
tempting.

The second case is more well known. Matt. 4:1 says, “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit
into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.” Mark 1:12 is more direct: “the Spirit impelled
Him”. The Father and the Spirit were testing Jesus. But neither the Father nor the Spirit tempted Jesus. They simply allowed Jesus to be tempted by Satan. The Son of David passed the test. He had faith. The way to pass God’s tests is by faith, which quench Satan’s temptations (cf. Eph. 6:16).

3. Concurrence with Moral Evil.
A. This logically raises the question of God’s, involvement when we fail the test. How does God
providentially influence the human will so that it sins, yet God does not force it to sin? Let us
recall what was said in our study of providence. You may recall that we stressed that God is the
First Cause of all things. But He also uses Second Causes. Sin is a Second Cause. Satan and
our sinful natures are Second Causes. Hence, God guarantees a certain result, but the cue ball
does not touch the eight ball. Theologically, we say that God is the “sufficient cause” of sin but
not the “efficient cause”.
B. Remember that God ordains sin differently than He does good. Similarly, when we do good,
it can be said that God is doing good through us (cf.Phil. 1:6, 2:13). But when we sin, it cannot
be said that God is sinning through us. Actually it is quite the reverse - He is sovereignly
permitting us to fall. He simply leaves us to ourselves.
C. God can restrain from sin. Gen. 20:6, “I also kept you from sinning against me.” Yet God is
under no compulsion to keep any or all of us from sinning against Him. He was under no
compulsion to prevent sin’s origin; He is under no compulsion in time to prevent sin’s
commission. Just as He sovereignly ”permitted” sin to enter, so He sovereignly - and justly -
“permits” sin to continue by withdrawing His strong arm that alone can prevent sin. Acts17:16,
“And in the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own way.” He was sovereign and holy; they were responsible and guilty.[/i]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/17 1:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb on 2007/7/17 1:56:25

Quote:
------------------------------------------------

God’s sovereignty is not the causation of all that happens. Calvin believing God to decree everything that happens raises serious issues. The problem of evil was decreed of God. By causing man to sin and then punishing man for that sin calls the character of God into question. God predestined other religions to deceive the people. God decrees man to murder, to rape, to thieving, and to lawlessness in the world.
------------------------------------------------

The danger with what you are posting his is that you blame God for man's sin, when man sinned at the instigation of Satan. God could have never allowed sin to enter the picture, but He did, because Christ must come as He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

God never made man sin as God cannot be tempted with evil, netiher does he tempt any man, and as you posted each man sins when he is drawn by his own lusts. But God did not make man evil at all, rather man was made good, but after the fall, man became incapable of spiritual life, as he is dead in sin, and a slave to sin. but God is not to be blamed for this, Adam and Eve were the only two humans who had a truly free will, and they chose to sin, they chose to believe the lie.




Roaringlamb, layman isn't saying that - Calvin did.


Others have come after Calvin to clean up an awful lot, but he said things like that God will allow some to believe they are saved until they die and then inform them that they weren't predestined.


The contest is between Satan and God and that is why Job was the first book written, before the law.

Satan accused God of basically "holding Job" and that if God would "let loose" that Job would curse him.

That is the eternal battle going on in the Heavenlies and we are proof to Satan that God will have a people who Love Him by choice.

That is what Paul meant by The Mystery in Eph. 5.

We are His Wife.

He would never force us to love Him .... that's exactly what Satan was trying to accuse God of with Job and that is why Job is our First book.

God wanted us to plainly see up there in Heaven of what goes on in the secret places.

I tremble writing this because this is a mystery and almost a secret in essense ... in that He spoke in parables for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit would say to the Church.

HE receives all the Glory and Honor and Praise when He presents "His Wife" before Satan the Hate god, so to speak, showing how she loved Him unto death and not forced to or robotized to.

Yes, He does get all the GLORY in the end.

Glory He would never get if HE forced Himself on His Bride.

If He would never allow His Creation to do so - and has commanded we not force anyone, then why would He ?

He wants us the way you want your wife ... of her own choosing and love given of her own freewill without your force.

It's all about LOVE and nothing Less brother.

That is what is being so heavily hit by both these Legalists and those who say that God has predestined some to hell.

Sorry we disagree, but I know you are still my brother, because my spirit bears witness with those who are His.

LOVE!

Annie

 2007/7/17 2:14
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Love

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis annie

you bring up the Point on Love. What is Love? Are we considering Love in light of our own understanding of it? Are we viewing Love according to the word of God? if so are we understanding Love in light of our own understanding of the word or as a result of the Revelation of the Love of GOd in our own lives by His Holy Spirit. the former can't be a substitute for the latter and i fear with many things, our understanding is tainted in this way. Sure we understand the scriptures with our heads but have they been inwrought in us?

What is the Love of God if not something absolutely incomprehensible to us, even repulsive because it is so unlike anything...it is Other. it's not "like" our love only better, it's Other. Could it be that our love wouldn't put pressure but that God's Love Demands Allegiance? Perhaps our love doesn't necessitate forsaking of all and GOd's Love Demands an abandoning of all we know or think we know even about Him?

Somehow i feel our perception of the Love of God remains warped and until it is righted, things such as this will throw us for a loop.

May God indeed Reveal His Love to us and make us Understand it that we may Understand Him. AMEN.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/17 12:07Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Is it not logical though(yes God gave us brains for a reason :-) ) to understand that behind all that goes on in the world, all things are working towards God's end?

While he has many tools at his disposal to accomplish this, He is never the author of it, as He works with the base desires of fallen men to do His will. Similarly Joseph told his brothers, " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20)

I could post a very long list of Scriptures, but I believe this one suffices for the time being-
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

It is a difficult thing to understand that we are not creators, nor are we equal to God at all. The angels marvel at God's grace because man is so wicked, and yet grace is given that men may be children of God!

There are two ways to look at things-
1) From man up, meaning that the start is with man, and how all revolves around him. Of course there is a name for this, it is humanism where man is the be all, end all. Ultimatley what happens is God is lessened to a big man, and since he is just a big man, we can come to him as our buddy, and we can dictate to him what we think is fair and right. this also ends up creating open theism, where God really doesn't have a set course or plan, and his purposes are thwarted and changed based on the decisions of men.

In other words, God must have a plan b, or c because man's choices will throw off God's plans.

2)From God down- Here we begin with God as the sovereign Creator of the universe. We are all as created things, not the Creator. Man exists for God's purpose, creation was made to bring Christ into the world and redeem men. God orchestrates, and carries out all His good pleasure, and noone can stop it or check it. Man is really nothing more than dirt that if God had not breathed life into, there would be no life.

This would be horrible if God was a merciless tyrant, but we know He is not. All He does is based upon foreordination, and providence. Of course some will say, "where was God when such and such happened?" He was there, and usually after tragedies, we see Him work, some are brought to repentance, others grow even harder to the things of God.

To bottom line all of this, man never has, and never will make God his debtor. This means that God is obligated to save none at all, but in His great mercy He saves some, and for this we should rejoice, and not use this as a point to declare God as unfair, or worse yet make Him into a creature like us.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/17 12:39Profile









 Re: Love

To say one has a twisted view of GOD's Divine Agape Love is to say a person has not read the whole Bible.

Boaz & Ruth come to mind - our Kinsmen Redeemer.

From Genesis on ....


I'm backing off of this or these type discussions for the same reason I gave earlier.

There is ample scholarship on the opposing viewpoint, but there is no use, whatsoever to post it here.


What good would it do ?

It's never stopped this debate & never will until He Comes ....

 2007/7/17 13:26
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 still thinking about Love

sis Annie

Greetings dear sister in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
To say one has a twisted view of GOD's Divine Agape Love is to say a person has not read the whole Bible.



initially i was asking if perhaps our understanding of the Love of God was off. toward the end i felt that perhaps this is so. One could read the whole bible and it profit him nothing except the Spirit of God illuminate the word for him. There are many who have read the scriptures and remain in bondage yet so this implies something deeper. Sure we could read and understand to some degree with our minds sis Annie but it seems to me the scriptures are more than that. There must be an inward working of the Spirit of GOd which evidences itself in what we do, think and speak.

i guess i wonder if we think the Love of God is something we can understand with out minds and that be sufficient for God's purposes...i guess i wonder how can we claim to understand something so Vast :-? The Love of God has nothing we can compare it to that we know of, that anyone knows of hence it being the sign to the world that we are His, by how we Love one another.

do we really understand His Love in the inner man or simply with our minds?

Grace and Peace be ours in JEsus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/17 14:43Profile









 Re: still thinking about Love

If you don't "KNOW" (as in the Biblical definition of "know") the LOVE of GOD, you are not saved in the end.
That "KNOW" is not head knowledge, in case you didn't "know".
One is not saved unless they "know" and practice and realize that HE IS LOVE and all that HE does is out of HIS LOVE.

Not saved without it! Proof is in His Word.

Sorry, but that's His Rules - not mine.



For the other discussion that this thread is on, that I haven't seen the use of .... that I've posted since last week is DIVIDING this Body of believers and we should just put it aside ... I'll post this link as my stand and then what ???

What good will this do ?

More folks not talking to each other after this ?

More folks stopping their emails to each other over this ?

You betcha, that's all these talks do but here's my stand and here I stand and refuse to discuss this any further - because it is just splitting us and distracting us from what [b]should[/b] be on our minds right Now.

This whole endless ripping and splitting is grievious. If we "loved" each other, 1/2 of the threads here wouldn't be here.

But here's more fotter so folks can go on with all of this, until your rights to post at all are taken.
Hope we at the least "miss" each other when that happens.


http://www.bereanpublishers.com/False_Doctrines/Foreknowledge_or_Predestination.htm



Edit to add definition of "know" from a Christian - so as not to bump thread.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18064&forum=45

 2007/7/17 15:03
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I just wanted to post two Scriptures

1 John 4:19 We love him, [b]because he first loved us.[/b]

He did something first, none can get around this, as it is clearly put here.

Next-
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, [b]of the same lump[/b] to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now the question here is not concerning Israel, but the lump is mankind. The lump is the same, there is nothing differing in it to make the Potter make one a vessel unto honour, and another a vessel unto dishonour. So there are two questions we must answer-

Is this lump fallen, or unfallen?

What, or who makes the difference in what the clay is made into?


P.S. Those who attribute this passage solely to the election of Israel please realize that an elect nation is made of elect people, and also this passage uses individuals to bring out a point of God's freedom in what he does with his creation. If you insist on that interpretation, please tell me what nation Pharaoh is an illustration of, and why Paul closes the chapter speaking of the election of the Gentiles, and why Paul would then say this-
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on [b]the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

-The "us" is the church is it not?
-Does Paul say that the "vessels of mercy" are "whom He has called"?
-What does Romans 8 say about those who are called?
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Done deal, end of story. There is no mention here of them falling away, or being lost. But instead a glorious description of God's keeping power over His people.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/17 15:34Profile









 Re:

Brother, you know why I didn't want to get into this debate, that's on So many threads now, because of what it's doing to us all.

For weeks saying it is splitting us up.

Since that doesn't matter, then I'll post one more link that expresses my feelings, just so you don't think I don't want to talk to you or anyone else.

I've posted all I can on this and if a man could say things for me, of what I believe, I would gladly not get involved at all.

I reckon this may be my last post on this ages-long controversy and I still feel we are all entitled to what we believe and why I'm in a Reformed Church, because they love me anyways.

Love you too brother.

Here's my beliefs and all I can say.
I'd prefer unity despite our differences on this.

Annie

http://www.imarc.cc/esecurity/jeffpaton10.html

 2007/7/17 19:48





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