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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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PosterThread
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

All I can say is God is soveriegn! We are scum and for God to sit there and wonder who will choose Him, is absolutely preposterous. I know some may disagree and that is cool. its not a salvation issue. For me that if that decision was left for me to make. Who would be soveriegn?

I know there is other things that will apply and counter act my opinion, this is just my thought and feeling.

Please don't hate me!! :-) :-P

 2007/8/16 22:50Profile









 Re:

Reformer, The sovereignty of God never sits and wonders. Another twist of thought. Why would God *knowing* the beginning from the end have any interference with man's free will to choose or reject life? AND if God just picked who He wanted, then there would be no need for Jesus to die on a cross....God's sovereignty would just redeem them, Right!!!

Katy-did

PS He did take Elijah and Enoch right...so what's the big deal about Jesus dying on the cross if God could and did just take those two on to heaven.

I don't think our opinion here is what impresses the Lord....but knowing His WORD does.

The WORD says, Jesus died for our sin AND the sin of the World...that would be everyone, and everyone can choose life or death based on teh death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not everyone will, but free choice does not throw the universe out of Control or thwart or injure teh sovereignty of God in the least.

 2007/8/17 19:14
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:
The WORD says, Jesus died for our sin AND the sin of the World...that would be everyone, and everyone can choose life or death based on teh death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not everyone will, but free choice does not throw the universe out of Control or thwart or injure teh sovereignty of God in the least.



Christ draws all men to himself, we don't chose Him, but HE choses us.

Eph 1:4-5
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intentention of His will.

God is not soveriegn if HE looks through all time and sees who chooses and who doesn't then renders a decision. I don't believe we are robots, I think there is a little of both. He chooses us, but He gives us the heart to say yes. Intellectually it sounds to us we choose Him and it was our freewill. He harden whom He hardens.

I think if we would really look closely at election with our hearts. And ponder this thought, would that bring to mind the incredible majesty of Him. It would put us in our places spiritually. We would be more thankful, I not saying that if one chooses the idea of freewill, they can't be thankful. For me there is such a contrast between the two ideas that one raises the standard of God and the other I think deminishes He soveriegnity.

Just a thought from a lay person.



 2007/8/18 9:36Profile









 Re:

Reformer, so many quote this scripture to prove their personal individual election.....

Quote:
Eph 1:4-5

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind indentation of His will.




But this is about the Body of Christ, The Bride, the Church as a WHOLE, those who have a heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. Yes, just as Eve is a *TYPE* of Church, bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh, so are we his Bride, the Church.

This special calling out of the Church is not promised to Earthly Israel or any gentiles entering into the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign. Those entering into the Kingdom Reign are not the New Creation or the NEW MAN...no longer Jew or Gentile, for at that time there will be a very definite distinction between Jew and Gentile. The Throne of David was never promised to Gentiles anyway, but will fulfill the prophecies of Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12 on.

What Paul is trying to get across to the CHURCH AGE is that we would KNOW the HOPE of [b]OUR[/b] calling. This is what he is praying we have the wisdom to hear and see. Why? Because without that wisdom to see and knowledge of Jesus to know, we will still be entangled in the affairs of this world and that will be devastating.

As long as satan can blind you to those things and have you focused on yourselves in the way he does, you will NEVER grow and mature in anything else. Satan is all about "me, myself and I" ( Reformed Theology), and has that hook in your back, because in doing so he can hinder the Gospel from being Preached. He was a murderer from the beginning, and seems to have continued down the same road ...


Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man who walketh [b]NOT[/b]in the councel of the ungodly, nor stand in the way of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scornful.

Now we know *all* false religions BLOCK the way of the Cross, one way or another, and Reformed Theology is no different.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/18 15:41









 Re:

One gives all the glory to God for electing His people and having His mercy on sinners. (not because of our will or our running)
One gives glory to Man for causing God to elect and have mercy on sinners. (because of our will and running)

One brings forth constant weeping and rejoicing in God's mercy.
One brings forth constant pride and arrogance in man's abilities.

One boast in the cross of Christ.
One boast in flesh and blood.

One is God-centered.
One is Man-centered.

 2007/9/22 0:00
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:
One gives all the glory to God for electing His people and having His mercy on sinners. (not because of our will or our running)
One gives glory to Man for causing God to elect and have mercy on sinners. (because of our will and running)


If you are alluding to Romans 9:16 when you say, "because of our will or our running"

You are seriously taking it out of context with no reference to its co-text.
The chapter is concerning who will be the lineage of the Seed.
[b]Rom 9:5[/b] [color=990000]whose are the fathers, and [b]from whom is the Christ according to flesh[/b], He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.[/color]

[b]Rom 9:13[/b] [color=990000]even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.[/color]
The reason why the Spirit says this is because it is to Israel, not the person of Israel which is Jacob.
[b]Mal 1:1-2[/b] [color=990000]The burden of the [b]Word of Jehovah [u]to Israel[/u][/b] by the hand of Malachi:
[b]:2[/b] I have loved you, says Jehovah. But you say, In what way have You loved us? Was not Esau the brother to Jacob? Yet Jehovah declares, I loved Jacob,[/color]

[b]Gen 25:23[/b] [color=990000]And Jehovah said to her, [b]Two nations are in your womb[/b]; even two peoples shall break from your body. And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.[/color]
Therefore, your reference to [b]Rom 9:16[/b] [color=990000]So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.[/color]
This verse is in context with Abraham [b]willing[/b] that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves
[b]Gen 17:18[/b] [color=990000]And Abraham said to God, Oh that Ishmael might live before You![/color]
Moreover Genesis 27 is Isaac [b]willing[/b] for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "[b]running[/b]" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

Now for you comment,
Quote:
"One gives all the glory to God for electing His people and having His mercy on sinners."
&
One gives glory to Man for causing God to elect and have mercy on sinners.

They both are having His mercy on sinners.
Your idea of elect only makes God a cruel despot.
Because if man has no choice in the matter, they are not being sent to hell for their own rejection of God, but for God creating them strictly for hell.

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:
One brings forth constant weeping and rejoicing in God's mercy.
One brings forth constant pride and arrogance in man's abilities.

Your view would be a cause for pride and arrogance because you were the one chosen and elected and the others weren't.
Furthermore, you can not give glory to God because you couldn't yield to the recognition of the glorious contrast of His brightness to the darkness of my shame; you could even see the difference, but God had to make you. There is no glory in coercion.

But my view would be a cause for weeping and rejoicing in God's mercy because I found out of my shame in sin and saw the glory of God and chose from my own volition to humble my self to ask for His mercy and grace.
My own will yielded to the recognition of the glorious contrast of His brightness to the darkness of my shame.

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:
One boast in the cross of Christ.
One boast in flesh and blood.

Do you know what a "straw man" is?

Ones own will and volition is not of "flesh and blood"
I boast in the cross of Christ, for it is the foundation of my faith.
[b]1Corinth 15:14[/b] [color=990000]and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.[/color]

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:
One is God-centered.
One is Man-centered.


Yours has a horrible view of God, the other understands what mans role is and understands what sovereignty really is.

 2007/9/22 11:50Profile





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