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 Re:

Hi IRONMAN. Hey, we had a good sermon this morning by one of the Asst Pastors because my Pastor is out from surgery. (PLEASE PRAY FOR him - THANKS!)

Anyhow, it was on the "Christian World View" and he used as his text Psalm 1.

Heavy duty and good too.

Here's the song we sang just before the Message.

[b]Song ~ Psalm 1

That man is blest who fearing God,
from sin restrains his feet.
Who will not stand with wicked men,
who shuns the scorner's seat.

Yea, blest is he who makes God's law
His portion and delight
and meditates upon that law
with gladness day and night.

That man is nourished like a tree
set by the river's side;
it's leaf is green, it's fruit is sure
and thus his works abide.

The wicked like the driven chaff
are swept from off the land;
they shall not gather with the just,
nor in the judgment stand.

The Lord will guard the righteous well,
their way to Him is known.
The way of sinners, far from God
shall surely be o'erthrown.[/b]


Lord bless!

 2007/7/15 20:52
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

Reply to Abraham
I believe scripture is clear that the election of grace is a sovereign act of God
Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, the Hebrews and the apostles were all chosen by God.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There is an election of individuals to eternal life
(2 Thess. 2:13;
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph. 1:4; 4.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Pet. 1:2;
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God
(Eph. 1:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 15:
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
God claims the right so to do
(Rom. 9:
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of sovereign grace
(Rom. 11:
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph. 1:3-6).
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
All that pertain to salvation, the means
(Eph. 2:
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2 Thess.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
as well as the end, are of God
Tim. 2:
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
1 Cor. 1
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Eph. 2:
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature." Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love"
(2 Thess. 2:
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Gal. 4:
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph. 1:
4. Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace
(Eph. 1:
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/15 23:49Profile









 Re: Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
It's really simple...

Read this passage.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


First, please carefully notice that you have 144,000 souls that are currently not yet saved. Yet, without a doubt they will be saved. Because God has spoken it. It will come to pass and by no means fail. Not only that! It get's better... God has chosen the exact same "even number" out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.(12,000 souls per tribe, no more and no less)

Now, these will be saved in the worst of times the world will ever experience. They will be persecuted in shocking ways. There's going to be much horrific suffering for those who remain a christian in those days!

Yet... How is it that not 1 soul is lost of the 144,000 and not 1 soul is lost of each of the 12,000 souls in each of the tribes?

Can you answer that?
You who say that God elects those who elect him...
You who say that we chose God to choose us...
You who say that God elected us because of our decision and choice...
You who say that man has the capabilty and will to cause God to elect him...

Was it their own free will and decision that kept these 144,000 souls saved, or was it God's own free will and decision.

Some might say, "It was both." You may say, "well... they all cooperated with God and agreed to remain saved."

So your basically saying... They all just happened to cooperate with the sovereign LORD and that's why He sovereignly sealed them? (144,000... no more and no less?) That is a gracious and beautiful set of numbers in this passage. Don't you think?

You then have to limit the free will and the soveriegnty of God down to man's free will. (In other words, God can only elect those who elect Him) Which is opposed to... A man will only elect and choose God, if God has chosen and elected that man.

You also have to conclude that God can only do ...what man will let God do (regarding salvation). (In other words, the filthy-rag free will of man is more powerful than the perfect holy grace of God.)

Can't you see? This exalts man above God.

Mormons, Catholics, and cults alike... love this doctrine that exalts the free will of man above the soveriegnty of God (in salvation). Come out from among them and be not a partaker of their deeds.

It must also be noted in the midst of this thread, How does one know if he is elect or has the seal of God? Well, you could read 1 John... This book will either condemn you or comfort you. Condemnation for this who will not repent and believe the gospel. ...and Comfort for those who hate their sin and continue in the purifying hope of the gospel.

You could also meditate on this simple passage.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Godly sorrow is a mark of true repentance to salvation from God's mercy and election.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

These numbers in Revelation chapter 7 are clear and exact. No man and no devil can blot them out. They are the elect of God and they will endure unto the end.

Now, some may say, "It doesn't apply to us... Revelation chapter 7 only applies to Isreal in the Tribulation."

You basically would be saying... They are elect and remain elect (becuase of God's free will). But, we are elect and remain elect (because of our free will).

Can't you see? These are 2 different ways of salvation? One is of man and the other is of God. One gives glory to man and the other gives all the glory to God. One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.

I'm presenting this thread to all those who hold to the doctrines of...

Election is Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith.

Conditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation.

Please respond, I would like to hear how you handle Revelation 7 with your theology.

God bless you! -Abraham :-)

P.S. I Edited it for the Large Fonts. Please forgive me, I don't want to appear to be shouting at anyone. God bless you. Thanks brother fro the correction. -Abraham

Hi Bro Abraham

Do I detect an element of "gotcha!" in your post? ;-)

As mentioned elsewhere, I eventually decided both predestination and freewill are true.

Truth is often paradoxical. Knowing that He is so much greater than us, how can we expect to fully understand the Lord's ways and His Word? We can expect things not always to fit into our neat categories or fixed theology...

However, it is good to seek to understand something of these great doctrines, as long as it doesn't get us into an unprofitable argument, so just a few thoughts....

1. What is "man-centred" about believing that we do have free will of some kind - although we may not agree about its exact boundaries?

2. I once did a word study on 1Corinthians 6:11;

“And such were some of you: but [u]ye are washed[/u], but [u]ye are sanctified[/u], but [u]ye are justified[/u] in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

Literally (if I remember rightly) it means, “…You have washed [u]yourselves[/u]…you [u]were[/u] sanctified…you [u]were justified[/u]…”

It does suggest there is a measure of free will involved.

God does the sanctifying and the justifying, (and provides the means for washing, of course) but WE have to consent to “jump in the shower”. Even though that also needs His grace to get to that point of desire and ability to do it…

3. Re the 144,000, it's an interesting scripture to use to prove a point re "election", but I don't think it really supports your view...

One reason is that it seems very likely that the 144,000 of Revelation is a symbolic rather than a literal number. 12 x 12 from each of the tribes = the completed people of God. And surely, through the ages since Revelation was written, there have been [u]many more than 144,000[/u] Jews saved?

Isaiah wrote of the Lord as Shepherd of His people, (Isaiah 40) that “… because he is strong in might, not one of them is missing”. Which Jesus again confirmed in His prayer in John 17 - He kept all His own, only Judas was lost - so that the scripture would be fulfilled - (which [u]does[/u] perhaps argue for predestination).

The point of what John saw is that all are present, the WHOLE of the true Israel who worship and follow the Lord fully. AND, even more wonderful (especially perhaps to John as a Jew), hosts and hosts of Gentiles AS WELL!!!

Exact numbers of individuals don't really figure much in the Biblical (Eastern) understanding, but the symbolic significance does.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/7/16 15:38
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Somebody got it!

sis Jeannette

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN

Quote:
As mentioned elsewhere, I eventually decided both predestination and freewill are true.



that's the same thing God showed me! the 2 seem mutually exclusive but they are employed of God for the Supreme Purpose, the Glory of His Name by the Revelation of His Manifold WIsdom to the powers of the air through the Church.

On this side, our brains can't get around that completely but on the other side it will be 100% clear. so this is what i say, thank God i am a vessel of mercy!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/16 20:20Profile









 Re: Could getcha!

And I've got enough "present active participles" to blow the doors off .....

BUT ~ I posted my thoughts here ....

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17896&forum=34



LORD GOD BLESS "WE & US".

'LOVE' Y'ALL.
:-D

 2007/7/16 21:29









 Re:

Thank you everyone for your input and views. Do continue. There are alot of good questions that have been asked. Thank you, to those that have been a help in answering some of the questions.

I have noticed a very important question that has been asked concerning natural man's inability and his unwillingness to come. (Is it in Scripture?) I will post a responese to this in a new thread. It goes into a whole seperate topic that needs to be foundational if you're going to better understand God's free will in Election.

These points will be in the thread.

1. Do the scriptures teach that all natural men are unwilling (before regeneration) to repent, believe, and recieve?

2. Do the Scriptures teach that all natural men are unable (before regeneration) to repent, believe, and recieve?

Here's the Link:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18043&forum=36&0

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/7/16 21:36
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Who gives, Who receives, and who believes? Who keeps who?

John 17:1-21 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you think the prayer of Jesus is answered by His and our Father? Ya think?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/16 21:48Profile









 Re:

[b]Neither pray I for these alone, but ..... That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: [u]that the world may believe that thou hast sent me[/u].[/b]


Philip, should we be praying this too ? Ya think ?


It's not about "us" in the world's eyes, but we as His Body are supposed to represent HIM to the world/here. Not have who's right on fine lines challenges just to "win" a controversey as old as mud.


When we start getting "smart" with each other on here, we look very dumb to the world. And I'm afraid that makes GOD our Saviour appear to be one to not be worth following, if His followers can't agree on what the Gospel is.

How is all of this representing The Church ?

Some "Christians" were killing each other over this debate back during the "Reformation".

Does that make the Reformation itself wrong ? No.

But it's the doctrine in the hands of proud men that destroys the GOSPEL.


In HIM, the Lover of our souls.


 2007/7/17 0:35
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Yes, that will be the fruit of our Father, our Brother Jesus our Lord and the Holy Spirit by which we live and move and have our being.

When you see a tree, it has fruit on it, we then can make an educated guess of know truly that it is a peach tree. The Same with what Jesus prayed for, then we are the fruit of the vine and the world will know us by our Love Fruit.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/17 0:56Profile









 Re:

Thank you Philip.

Our "fruit" is our love for the brethren.

Our Love would never cause us to throw contests or grinning-faces-of-victory at each other in such controversies.

Unity is our Love. And I posted a mess of Scriptures on page one here - 3rd post - but no one addresses them.

I have every love verse from the N.T. in one post, but it's so long, I don't dare post it again.
If I find it, I'll bump it.

We don't all believe the same on this, but our love should prevent us from egging each other on with this controversy.

I find myself personally in the middle of two warring factions and I cannot help but stay in the middle position on this.

But the present active participles I mentioned are in the words, "believing - following - abiding - faithing - obeying - loving" - and others and a "PAP" means "continuous action".

I won't go any further with that, but GOD from the git-go put Love for him and others right up top of His Demands.

Faith in Love must go together or it is dross.

Hope you can understand why the contrary would upset me.

Thank you again.
Annie

 2007/7/17 1:20





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