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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 Re: why doth He find fault? it is not about he who wills but He who shows Mercy...

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Logic

Pharaoh hardend his own heart first with God'd power being show to him and he still refused to repent, therefore, God hardednd Pharaoh's heart.

Paul says that God told Moses that He has Mercy on whom He will have Mercy so this is not about Pharoah hardening his heart by himself but God not showing Mercy to Pharoah for the Purpose of Showing His Power. it was God who raised Pharoah but in the first place. Pharoah refusing to let Israel go was because God had hardened pharoah's heart to give God occasion to display His Power to Save. Just like Esau was not rejected because he sold his birthright, but according to Romans 9 God chose Jacob [i][b]before[/b][/i] the boys were born so [i][b]His[/b][/i] Election would stand. Esau sold his birthright because God had rejected him from before he was born. God doesn't make contingencies...we move according to what He has determined for His own good pleasure. God didn't say when pharoah refused to let Israel go, "oh snap, let me harden his heart...didn't see that coming."

Now we can leave Romans 9 out and say that man is saved because he chooses God. however there are other sections in Paul's writing where he makes mention of this calling to Salvation being dependant on God. Even John 3:16 clearly (to me anyway) shows that Salvation is a thing initiated by God to which man responds as GOd has given Grace. John 6:65 says no man can come to the SOn except the Father draws him...the word even says that we know God Loved us because Christ died for us while we were sinners. if we could Love God while we are sinners there would have been no need for Christ to die. It seems that the ability to choose God onour part is a function of the Sacrifice of Christ on the cross while we were sinners and without which we had no hope of Salvation.

of course none of this is logical as far as we are pun intended i guess...Truly the Ways of God are above our own reasonings.Oh indeed the depth of the Knowledge and Wisdom of God, [i][b]WHO[/b][/i] has been His counselor?

man does have a role to play and has his own will, his will however is wraped up in the Sovereign Will of God. i'm cool with that but perhaps that chaps us a little...perhaps because we don't like the idea of not being in control or that we are not quite as in control as we would like to be. i am willing to consider that i am completely wrong and so would be in much need of prayer and correction. i wonder if you have considerd that maybe you are wrong?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/20 13:56Profile

 Re: Freewill & Boasting

The title of this thread is annoying, though I knew what Jesse meant.

How about Freewill with all the Glory to God. :-)

Hey youse guys keep posting to me, but the problem is that .........

You want me to read your posts only.

I left two very good web-links that express my opinions on the other thread ......

Yet y'all want to change my mind.


Other than lacking the reading of Scripture in Context & as One whole story from Genesis to Rev and read as such and not doing very intensive word studies on your own, without commentaries, I think you guys are really very dear brothers .... :-D .

I don't like debating this (saying for 27th time :) because I love Spurgeon, Murray ........

You've heard all my speels before and about my reformed church that I'm in, etc, etc...

O.K., I'll just move those two weblinks over here, but it won't do any good .....

Because, you want me to read your posts and Piper [u]but won't read my links.[/u] :-p

But here they are again anyhowz.

I think it would be better if all of y'all who agree should stay on one thread each, then everyone's agreeing and no dander getting raised.

But then the Calvinish will split hairs with each other and the Armininists will do the same on their own thread.

HA ~ we [b]do[/b] need God to do a [b]new[/b] thing !!!

LOVE! y'all.

 2007/7/20 13:59

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 People Groups and Individuals...let me boast a bit

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Nile
When Paul wrote in Romans 9 about the Electionof Jacob he spoke specifically of the issue of the children not yet being born which seems (to me anyway) to imply the individual boys. Now of course what happened there did affect the ones descended from them. People groups are made up of individuals so the Election of people groups is according to the Election of certains ones in that group according to God HImself. Abraham was promised many descendants which would be more than the stars in the sky...these descendants would be given him of God because God promised him a son with Sarah. Paul also says that not all the children are those of the promise, Abraham had other children beside Ishmael and Isaac and so that to me seems like a forshadowing of the Election to Salvation through Christ. God had chosen Isaac to be the child of the promise before he ws born.

Also, concerning Roman's 8:28-29, I believe it is only half of the story, God's side. God is eternally true and will faithfully fulfill His side of salvation. We still have our side though.

oh indeed bro, indeed! if we know God to be Faithful completely in upholding His end of the bargain, and we know our own unfaithfulness, can we trust ourselves to hold up our end of the bargain apart from Him? perhaps some think so, i humbly don't. i boast however in God's Mercy on me, in that while i was yet a sinner, He called me to Himself. i boast in God that from before the setting of the foundations of the world i was Called and Chosen by Him unto Salvation. i boast that except God had extended Grace to me i would be finished and that because He did extend Grace to me, i am Saved!

oh i boast in Him alright!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/20 14:17Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 Foreknowledge or Predestination? what of Forknowledge AND Predestination being one?

Greetings once again in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis annie, i went to the first link and in the opening statement which reads:

[b]As we look at Predestination vs. Foreknowledge, we are looking at diametrically different views of Scripture. We might say this is a watershed issue. [/b]

the premise is wrong from jump. it's not a matter of predestination [u][i][b]VS/OR[/b][/i][/u] foreknowledge, it in fact is both. The two are not diametrically opposed at all as suggested here. They seem that way only because we look at them through our own understanding. the 2 are 1 and although to most it appears they are opposing, the testimony of scripture is not that it is one or the other, but rather both. The 2 are 1 in that they work together for the Purpose, that being the Glory of GOd forever and ever through the display of His Manifold Wisdom to the princes of the air through the Church.

sis annie i realize i may have been unclear about this and i ask your forgiveness if i have caused you to stumble. i have been called a Calvanist before, and i'm not, i don't really even know what Calvanism is... :-? to me it is plain, it all rests on God and yet we have a responsibility to fulfil it, we need His Hand to Move.

I think it would be better if all of y'all who agree should stay on one thread each, then everyone's agreeing and no dander getting raised.

:-P sis like the guy who wrote the second piece you put up, we have to have a balance, the truth is not either or, but both.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/7/20 14:35Profile

 Re: Foreknowledge or Predestination? what of Forknowledge AND Predestination being on

Awwwwwww, youse guys.

The thing is to be sola-scriptura.

Look at all the verses that say Predestined and see that they are saying "predestined TO" something that comes After Salvation.

You didn't read the whole LINK so put that tongue back in yer head. :-P

Ha, Hey, I'm a "love people" now. :-D

I'd rather be called that than ANYTHING!!!!

Like I said, Unity on this issue suits me just fine in my Reformed Theology Church. :-D

Love you and Mrs. Ironperson.


 2007/7/20 15:28


Brother Nile wrote: On Romans 9, I believe Paul is talking about people groups and not individuals.


[u][b]AN OVERVIEW OF ROMANS 9 - 10 - 11[/b][/u]

Paul defends the conditional election of the gentiles (which was of great controversy in the jewish world) and attacked the false notion of the unconditional election of the Israelites.

[b]- First[/b] Paul demonstrated God's Sovereignty in selecting nations and using them as He see's fit. Paul gives example of God choosing Jacob (Israel), Esau (Edom) and Pharaoh (Egypt).

The first two (Jacob, Esau) had no relation to God's wrath or mercy because they were not chosen for being good or rejected for being bad. The jews however entertained the thought that they were the "chosen" people because of their righteousness. However, God chose Jacob, to bless his seed, before Jacob did anything good or bad. (Romans 9:11)

The last one (Pharaoh, Egypt) properly received God's wrath, in accordance with Pharaohs own evil freewill, as the scriptures say that He hardened Himself (Ex 8:15, Ex 8:32), (God hardened Pharaohs proud heart by bringing threatenings and judgment, which resulted in Pharaoh becoming more stubburn and proud) and the Egyptians were idolators who enslaved the Israelites. And God did this to bring about a purpose which God saw fit, to use a voluntarily sinful person, and a voluntarily sinful nation, to get good - His Glory and power revealed to the nations.

But Jacob was not chosen to unconditional salvation, rather God choose to bless His seed and make out of Him the "chosen people". Esau was not reprobated to unconditional condemnation, his seed was simply not chosen to be the great nation. And Pharoah was not unconditionally reprobated to eternal condemnation. He was simply a willingly sinful person that God choose to show His power and greatness through.

[b]- Then[/b] Paul explains how the jews cannot find fault with God for using nations as He sees fit, (because God always acts in accordance with His benevolence and intelligence, God not ever acting arbitrarily even if our finite minds do not understand him, we can trust His character to always do what is wise and good in His eyes). And so the jews cannot find fault with God for having a pre - destiny - (for) nations, like the nation of the gentiles.
Something which the jews in Pauls day were prone to argue against since they thought they were the "chosen"people.

[b]- Then[/b] Paul explains how God Sovereignly "cut off" the chosen people Israel because they failed to meet the conditions of their predestination, because they "believed not". They were not unconditionally eternally secure as they imagined, and Paul even warned the chosen gentiles to "fear" "lest you too be cut off"

[b]- Then[/b] Paul showed how God has grafted in the Gentiles, just as He always predetermined to do, because He always had a pre-determined/destiny - (for) nations [pre-destiny-nations], even a predetermined plan for the Gentiles.

Hence, God told Abraham "In they seed shall ALL NATIONS be blessed" (Gen 22:18, 26:4) and God spoke by Isaiah saying the jews were chosen to be "a light unto the Gentiles" (Isaiah 42:6).


Paul answered the Jews, how they cannot find fault with God for hardening (cutting off) Israel while showing mercy (grafting in) the gentiles. There is no fault in the justice of God for cutting off the unbelieving, and grafting in those with repentant faith.

And Paul answered the misconceptions that the Jews had, that they were the chosen people because of their own goodness, rather then because of God's mercy, and that they were unconditionally eternally secure because they were the elect, "chosen" people.

And so Paul showed how they were not chosen for their goodness, nor eternally secure because they were chosen, but that they were "cut off" "because of unbelief" because they failed to meet the terms of their conditional election.

Predestination is God's pre-destiny (for) - nations, which predetermined plan was to offer salvation to all nations that repent and believe, that God would ultimately choose to save those individuals who voluntarily repent of their sins and put their faith in the forgiving grace of God.

 2007/7/21 0:19

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