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IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Jay
you said:


Quote:
I believe you are a Dispensationalist (if I am wrong please let me know). This viewpoint (which I do not subscribe to) says that Jesus will come a second time to gather His elect and then 7 years later come again with His elect to judge mankind.Now, that is two separate "comings". You are saying that from the second coming until after the 1000 year millenium is in fact the "Day of the Lord", which might be correct, but unless you believe in once return of Christ to judge mankind and gather the elect, your position fails. It fails when you try to say that there are not "two comings" during this period and yet maintain that Jesus comes first for the elect and second with the elect.





indeed you are wrong about my position on this issue. i don't buy the whole pre-trib rapture arguement at all, in fact i think that it is part of the great falling away which precedes the revelation of antichrist. i believe Christ will come once after the tribulation and do both; gather the saints and trample the wicked in one fell swoop. i see the day of the Lord being this whole period.

i hope that clears that up. Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/14 3:36Profile
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 Re:

bro Corey

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN


Quote:
I see. So evils like rape, theft, and murder will still be practiced in Christ's Millenial Kingdom? Please.



well bro Corey let us consider the scriptures which pertain to that period. in Revelation 19 the word describes the return of Christ as follows:

[b]11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.[/b]

now this is the description of the Rule of Christ:

[i][b]15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [/b][/i]

what does it mean to rule with a rod of iron and to smite the nations? it seems to me there is rebellion at His return which must be stamped out. The word doesn't say that the rebellion is squashed fully at Christ's return, the word says:

still in Rev 19[b]19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. [/b]

note that Satan is not cast into the lake of fire yet, the false prophet and the beast are. The fighting men are killed in battle against Christ and His Forces.

in Revelation 20 the word says:

[b]1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.[/b]

in this period in which Christ reigns it seems to me that there will be those who do rebel against His reign else He would not have to Rule with a Rod of Iron. Perhaps i am wrong on this but if this is the case, then men shall do wicked things yet in this time. If not, well and good but if all men are saved in this time, then how come when the enemy comes out of the pit he deceives the nations? :-?

from Rev 20

[b] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [/b]

it seems to me that the enemy will deceive many by employing his demon forces. Satan is not omnipresent and will need help in deceiving people. during the thousand years, satan is bound but nothing is said of where is demon forces will be...these are not fully spirit nor fully human so they await being cast into the lake of fire, perhaps they are tossed in with the false prophet, the word doesn't expressly say so though. so much to consider...



Quote:
Hehe. The "Day of the Lord" might not be a 24-hour period? Then what of the six literal 24-hour days of Creation...



there is no reason for me to believe that creation wasn't done in 6 24 hr days, God can do that, they could also have been 6 thousand yr days too, God can do that too because time is His toy to with whatever He pleases. Clearly the day of the Lord encompases judgments which occur over a long period of time so it's not 24 hrs as we know it. bro Corey a day isn't 24 hrs or 1000 yrs only, a day is however long God decides it to be since it is His Divine Prerogative.

anyhow, i am unsure if you have taken the time to explain what all this means to you. i'm a literalist and i'm not looking for antichrist so i would that you not accuse me of such. i have hurled no accusation at you bro. if i am wrong in being a literalist then i pray God Rebuke me and set me straight coz God knows i'm not trying to be deceived. if you are wrong, then the Lord Rebuke and correct you.

There are references to Christ's return to earth where He shall split the mount of olives in 2 and rule from the throne of David. that seems literal to me, what could it be symbolic of?

so what does the Millenial Reign mean to you? you say it is symbolic? if the return of Christ symbolic or literal? is the book of the Revelation symbolic or literal or is it both?

i would like to understand where you are coming from bro.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/14 4:10Profile
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 because you may have missed it...

bro Corey
you said:

Quote:

Corey_H wrote:
Greg, thanks for all the quotations. But, again, the only literal physical kingdom they speak of is antichrist's.

I didn't read anything pertaining to a millennial reign of Christ on Earth.

Maybe I missed something?



from Rev 19:

[b]11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. [/b]

Rev 20

[b]1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,[/b][u][i][b]till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/b][/i][/u]

what does the above mean? it seems to say Christ will Rule with the Martyrs for a 1000 yrs.

[u][i][b]5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/b][/i][/u]

and there it is repeated...God is trying to communicate something here quite plainly.

what does the above mean to you? to me it's plain but i may be wrong, all the same i am curious as to what you make of it.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/14 4:19Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
indeed you are wrong about my position on this issue. i don't buy the whole pre-trib rapture arguement at all, in fact i think that it is part of the great falling away which precedes the revelation of antichrist. i believe Christ will come once after the tribulation and do both; gather the saints and trample the wicked in one fell swoop. i see the day of the Lord being this whole period.

i hope that clears that up. Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.



Thanks for clearing up my confusion. Grace to you.

 2007/7/14 10:03Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
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 Re:

Quote:
i see the day of the Lord being this whole period.



Ironman,

Brother, perhaps I can persuade you to see the Day of the Lord as a literal day, for every reference in Scripture implies this. The Day of the Lord is the day when Jesus comes in glory, it does not include the tribulation. A simple concordance search shows this. I am interested in knowing why you believe it includes the tribulation because I can't find one Scripture supporting this idea. Are you just assuming it so because of the vials of wrath in Revelation 16?

[i]"But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD."[/i] (Zechariah 14:7

Brother Tim Warner has a great short article on this subject. I recommend checking it out at http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/daylord.html

God bless you brother!
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/14 13:21Profile
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 24 hrs 1000yrs...all the same

Bro Eli

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
Brother, perhaps I can persuade you to see the Day of the Lord as a literal day, for every reference in Scripture implies this. The Day of the Lord is the day when Jesus comes in glory, it does not include the tribulation. A simple concordance search shows this. I am interested in knowing why you believe it includes the tribulation because I can't find one Scripture supporting this idea. Are you just assuming it so because of the vials of wrath in Revelation 16?



well day of the Lord always spoke to me of Judgment.i may well be wrong but let us reason together and see if God will open the Truth up to us. AMEN.

from Joel chapt 2

[b]10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? [/b]

i am thinking that the terror associated with this day does seem to speak of Judgment. it seems what the stars do here is the passing away of the old heaven and earth, or is it the darkening of the bodies of light which happens at the end of the trib? lots to consider here...this doesn't necessarily include the trib though the trib leads up to it as said here in the same chapt

[b]31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. [/b]

Amos 5 says:

[b]18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. 20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?[/b]

i suppose this is speaking of the inescapable Judgment which comes with this terrible day.then in Obadiah:

Quote:
15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.



this implies Judgement to me, which i suppose is what happens at Christ's return when He deals with the forces gathered around Jersusalem.

anyhow one of the most compelling verses to me is this from 2 Peter 3:

[b]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting F10 unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [/b]

now this which Peter is talking about seems to me the passing away of the old heaven and earth which happens after the Millenial Reign in Rev 21. so it seems to me that the Day of The Lord doesn't only include Christ's return (as it seems to begin with that hence we should be prepared) but goes on until after it is completed and the old heaven and earth passes away. i may well be reading this wrong.

i read the article you attached and i was unsure of the Zech 14 reference:

[b] 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. [/b]

it seems that this is speaking of when He comes back that it will be a day which He knows, not necessarily that it is a 24 hr period. i maintain that God does Reserve the Right to have that as a 24 hr period (as you believe) or a period of however long He thinks is necesary to accomplish His Purposes. i would say that it is both, the word does say a day is as a thousand yrs and a thousand yrs as a day to the Lord...imagine that it's not either or but both as far as He is concerned...the more i press into Him, the more my head hurts :knockedout:

bro Corey

about the Millenial Reign and how Christ must rule with an Iron Rod, i found this which was quite interesting which i bring for your consideration. In Zechariah 14:

[u][i][b]8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former F45 sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.[/b][/i][/u]

God Rules from Jerusalem over all the earth...what could that be if not literal?



[b]10 All the land shall be turned F46 as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.[/b]

this is clearly talking about Jerusalem, i am unsure if Jerusalem is symbolic of anything, if you think so, i would like to know what Jerusalem could be a symbol for.

[b]12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah F47 also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. [/b]

this is speaking of what is commonly called the Battle of Armageddon, there really is no such thing as there is no battle at Armageddon but rather a gathering of forces there, the battle is in Jerusalem.

the chapter goes on:

[b]16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment F48 of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles[/b]

it seems that there is from time to time a refusal among some of the nations to do right by God in this period in which Christ is RUling from Jerusalem which draws a punishment from Him. it seems to me the whole issue of Ruling with an Iron Rod speaks of such resistance to His rule. if the nations will refuse from time to time to worship rightly, perhaps the nations will be guilty of other iniquities also. This to me doesn't imply ineptitude as far as Christ's Rule is concerned but rather the desperate wickedness of man that even with Him on earth, men will want to sin.

it seems then that the temple will have a role to play given the yearly feast of tabernacles.

then the chapter ends:

[b]20 In that day shall there be upon the bells F49 of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. [/b]

well to me is seems this is literal, i am not the brightest colour in the box, hence my rather simplistic view. i am curious if you think all this is symbolic, fully or partially and if so, symbolic of what?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/14 14:44Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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 Re: 24 hrs 1000yrs...all the same

Ironman, thanks for your reply.

Absolutely... the day of the Lord is most definitely speaking of judgment. The coming of the Lord Jesus is most certainly judgment.

[i]"When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."[/i] (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

[i]"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."[/i] (Revelation 19:1-15)

The retributive judgment of God only begins when Jesus appears out of heaven. The vials of wrath described in Revelation 16 are not legal wrath but passionate wrath (see the Greek).

As for the Old Testament references, they all agree with the testimony of Jesus in Matthew 24,

[i]"Immediately after the tribulation of those days [b]shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/b] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..."[/i] (Matthew 24:29-30)

The cosmic signs and darkened sun and moon occur immediately prior to the revelation of Christ. See also Revelation 6:12-17 and 16:10-21. This is in line with Joel's prophecy of the day of the Lord which Peter repeated on the Day of Pentecost.

Finally, 2 Peter 3 is also speaking of when Jesus returns. If you notice, the earth is not destroyed in his description. He says, [i]"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, [b]by the same word[/b] are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."[/i] (2 Peter 3:6-7) In the same way that the world perished by the flood, so shall it perish by fire when Christ returns, but the earth itself was not destroyed in Noah's day, neither will it be in Christ's day. Notice also it is the heaven (sky) that melts, or in other Scriptures, rolls up, rends, as Christ comes out of Heaven.

See the great parallel between this third chapter in 2 Peter and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

Also brother, the day of the Lord is also described as coming "as a thief", meaning to the surprise of the ungodly nations, and this expression is repeated in [b]2 Peter 3:10, Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,4, Revelation 3:3 and Revelation 16:15[/b].

A day of clouds, darkness, wrath and judgment... the day of the Lord is the day Christ comes back to earth to burn away the ungodly like chaff.

Blessings brother,
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2007/7/15 0:37Profile
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 Re:

bro Eli

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
The retributive judgment of God only begins when Jesus appears out of heaven. The vials of wrath described in Revelation 16 are not legal wrath but passionate wrath (see the Greek).



well what does it mean to say that the vials are not legal wrath? :-? to me it seems that whatever Judgments God pours out are Legal. i suppose that is why i thought the day of the Lord was a period of Judgment and not necessarily a 24 hr day. i read a bit on the article you wrote differentiating the wraths of God as expressed in the Greek. it seems to me the wrath we are spared is not only the wrath poured out in the trib (spared here meaning we are preserved through) and the final wrath of the lake of fire. i am unsure why pre-tribbers can't understand that idea :-?

anyhow in Revelation 19 the word speaks of the opening of the heavens for Christ to return, then the earth and heaven flee from Him after the Millenial Reign, is this distinct from the day of the Lord then? it is at this point that the books are opened and men are judged and rewarded. Doesn't the day of the Lord also include this aspect of God Judging?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/15 2:27Profile









 Re:

[b]Will the true Heretics please stand up![/b] :-P

 2007/7/15 9:48









 Re:

I'm gonna just leave this link as my participation on this thread.

For the "pukkas".


Lord Bless !!!

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6767&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

 2007/7/15 14:38





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