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taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re: Abraham paid tithes

Is there any scrpiptural evidence that Abraham paid tithes?

Yes he gave a tithe of all the spoil to melchezidek. But where is the evidence that that was a weekly prctice for him?

Taco

 2004/6/14 3:41Profile
earnestlycontend
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 69
Flinstone, GA

 Re:

Quote:
Not really. This was the charge to people under the law. He would have said the same thing about not sewing your garments from two different materials. They ought to obey the whole law.



After brainstorming some, I don't remember Christ ever teaching "ceremonial" law at anytime - even to those whose were "under the law."


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Kendal Shipley

 2004/6/14 10:33Profile
Bub
Member



Joined: 2004/3/29
Posts: 18
San Diego, CA

 Re:

Here are a few Spurgeon quotes regarding tithing that you might appreciate brothers and sisters:

"It is a blessed thing for a young man to begin business with the rule that he will give the Lord at least his tenth"

"Much has been said about giving the tenth of one's income to the Lord. I think that is a Christian duty which none should for a moment question. If it were a duty under the Jewish law, much more is it so now under the Christian dispensation. But it is a great mistake to suppose that the Jew gave only a tenth. He gave very, very, very much more than that. The tenth was the payment which he must make. But after that came freewill offerings and all the various gifts at different seasons of the year, so that perhaps he gave a third. Much more nearly that, certainly, than a tenth."

"In the religion of Christ there is no taxation. Everything is of love." :-) :-D ;-)


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Alan Mendoza

 2004/6/14 12:50Profile
Bub
Member



Joined: 2004/3/29
Posts: 18
San Diego, CA

 Re: Those who do not tithe

I don't want this in any way to be a condemning statement for those who don't tithe, but hopefully you will search your heart. For I know far too many who say they are in Christ and yet are so far from the New Testament church as described in Acts when they brought all that they had. Don't make the mistake of justifying not giving anything at all when God has so freely blessed you. If this be the case then perhaps you've not met the self sacrificing man from Nazareth and had your heart transformed to not hold on to the things of this world. I also know many godly pastors who give of their lives to the people in the church so much so that they don't have the time to support their family thru a job. If God should so choose that the support given thru tithes should help him to put food on his table while he prepares the food for all those he ministers to and councils throughout the week then I am all for the giving of tithes and above that offerings where there are needs. No it is not a law to give but since love is greater than the law do you love enough to give.

In His Grace,
Bub


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Alan Mendoza

 2004/6/14 13:11Profile
Bobber
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Joined: 2004/6/4
Posts: 5


 Re:

Quote:
I don't want this in any way to be a condemning statement for those who don't tithe, but hopefully you will search your heart.



I guess the same thing could be said about churches which insit and demand the tithe they each one of them should search their heart as well. Are their motives always right in sincere in putting preasure on people to give? I would say some of their hearts are right but then again some of them may not.

Quote:
For I know far too many who say they are in Christ and yet are so far from the New Testament church as described in Acts when they brought all that they had.



I agree members of the early church were generous and the wealthy brought much of their excess material goods which they distrubted to the poor among them but this isn't the tithing issue. When some state that tithing is insisted uppon in the New Testatment from the standpoint of "law" or you have sinned agasint God if you don't give the actual 10 % well that's not what is being put forth in the scripture you mentioned. IN other words I don't believe one can use the verse where they at a certain time sold their goods to help the poor among them and say that means every week you give 10% of your income and that everyone is to do that.

Quote:
Don't make the mistake of justifying not giving anything at all when God has so freely blessed you.



Im not sure that there are too many that don't want to give anything at all . IM sure most would like to give and to bless but in measure of what they feel they can afford.

Quote:
I also know many godly pastors who give of their lives to the people in the church so much so that they don't have the time to support their family thru a job.



A question for another topic might be though has God really called one man to have all of his time taken up to serve the body of Christ. Perhaps with some yes, but could it be that a church should have more then one pastor or overseer kind of what like they do in the Breathren Assemblies? [im not of the Breathren Assmemblies for the record] But certain groups like this do carry out pastoral ministry and also work in the secular work force.

Quote:
If God should so choose that the support given thru tithes should help him to put food on his table while he prepares the food for all those he ministers to and councils throughout the week then I am all for the giving of tithes and above that offerings where there are needs.



I think that's fine and right for you to want to see those who minister taken care of but if I introduced another thought here most of the money taken in doesn't even go to the pastor it goes to pay off church buildings, and there upkeep. What about say approaching church in a totally different way in say having church in houses? There are many web sites about House Churches on the internet. Maybe eightly percent of all giving is going into physical buidlings? Wouldn't that money better be put right into helping ministers and to feed the poor?

 2004/6/14 14:47Profile
Bub
Member



Joined: 2004/3/29
Posts: 18
San Diego, CA

 Re:

Bobber,

I think it is safe to say that you don't tithe ;-)

Although I would like to get in a lengthy discusssion on some of your responses I'm going to choose not to. I posted that statement for those it would minister to in searching where there heart is. As the Lord said, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

However, if I may have the chance, I would explain to you my experience in tithing. Since I got saved I have given of my money to the work of the church and the Lord has been faithful to keep me involved in churches where the gospel is being preached, the Spirit of God is working and convicting sinners, and disciples are being made and sent to make disciples, which might make it easier for me to have a heart to want to support that work. In any case, my testimony is one of God's faithfulness in that even when my wife and I were struggling to make ends meet, we remained faithful in giving what we could down to 10% of our income. And we are witnesses today in saying that when it didn't make sense, and we should be saving up money for our future and our family that we never missed a bill, never missed rent, and we always had food on the table. I dare not take that for granted in the ways which God provided for us at that time. Fast forward now 5 1/2 years with one baby boy, and one on the way here in 4 months and God remained faithful the entire time not only to meet our needs but to now have us in a place where we have "grain stored up in the barns" as far as money goes and we're able to give not only our 10% but bless others around us on pretty much a once a week or couple times a week basis. I firmly believe that we are an example of the promise of God, which in Christ ALL the promises of God are yes and amen, of those who've believed Him when he said in Malachi 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Again I say this as my testimony because I do tithe based on my love for Jesus and the work of His kingdom, and my faith in His word that to put it in laymen's terms from Malachi "you can't outgive God".

I'll end with this quote from Spurgeon from a sermon he preached on John 1:16 "And of His fullness have all we received."




Quote:
-For all ye have ye have received of His fullness. I think that what we want as a church is more recognition of the gifts we have as coming from Christ. I do not think we have the gratitude we ought to have to him. We do not make sacrifices for Him. We give, it is true, to this cause and to that, but are there half-a-dozen Christians here that have ever made a sacrifice for Christ? He gives us blood and we give Him a few tears. He gives us sweat and we give Him cold services. He gives us groans and we give Him languishing hymns. He gives us life and death, body, soul, and spirit, and we give Him only what we can spare after we have first looked to ourselves- and not all that in the most of cases. Let us feel, O God, let us feel gratitude to Christ. As a fire within our bones, as a flame within our hearts, and as a sevenfold strength in our spirits, not only to believe in his name, but also to suffer for his sake; let gratitude be the inspiration of our lives - C.H. Spurgeon October 20th, 1861


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Alan Mendoza

 2004/6/15 14:19Profile









 RE: DFCM

Friend, I read your post in full, and it gave me chills as I read!

I taught EXACTLY what you posted when I was a member in the Word of Faith camp....Not that YOU are, but this IS what they teach.

We must be careful when speaking on the Law....

The Law is for a sinner, tp show him his guilt before God.

Saints are not under the Law, but are free in Christ.

In reply to your question, I want to be like Jesus Christ.

:)

 2004/6/19 23:27
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Tithing Issue

Hi all,
Just thought I would enter something out of the Membership Training course of the church I attend. I actually run the training of this course, and am a little uncomfortable at teaching this on the face value alone. I would lean toward the points of:

Making sure your giving is cheerful rather than compulsive
Giving out of need rather than abundance
Emphasising Acts 2:44-45 & 4:32-35, pointing out the concept of 100% is NT.

I don't like to emphasise the "tithe" due to the implications of "bondage to law". But where do we end this whole affair. Is repentance, prayer, fasting "law"?
I have recently made a point of staying out of divisional issues in these forums. My main reason for entering into this one is because, I am unsure and would appreciate the different views available from SI members. I currently tithe (and go beyond upon prompting from the Holy Spirit) due to the fact that I want my "righteousness to exceed that of the Pharisees". I would rather err on the side of caution in this matter due to the fact that most people (perhaps none who are posting in this forum) use the tithing=OT debate to withold from God what He requires of them. I would rather be a cheerful giver who purposes in his heart to go far beyond the 10-20% I currently give, but my faith is not there yet.
It's also worth noting that Ravenhill, Tozer, Nicholson and others emphasised tithing in various sermons, particularly one's that dealt with wholehearted submission to God. For a more extreme viewpoint on this issue, check out One thing you lack by Art Katz (not for the faint hearted :-)).
Anyway, here is the undiluted view point of the church I attend. Please feel free to comment.>

Az
____________________________________________

WHAT IS GIVING?
Bringing in the tithe and giving offerings
Tithing is giving the first tenth of your income to the Lord for the work of the local church. Tithing was practiced throughout the whole Old Testament, beginning with Abraham. (Gen 14:20). In New Testament times it has been the starting point for believers who are growing to understand that, in fact, now they are saved, they have come to the understanding that God owns everything; and I am a manager or "steward" of all I possess. I am now managing it for God, on His behalf. I now must use it and direct it as the Holy Sprit leads me. Most opponents of the principle of tithing give less than the 10%. Most people who have received the revelation of stewardship give more than 10% and receive great financial blessings through their giving.

Does it Cost?
You can’t out give God. He has promised to be our abundance. II Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Before you were a Christian you may have spent more than 10% of your income in frivolous ways that now you save on. For example drinking, smoking, gambling, etc. etc.
Investing into the Kingdom of God is the only way we can preserve the value of your labours for eternity. If your father is wealthy, you have a confidence that He will look after you.
Giving offerings includes the finance we give to special needs like missions work, a church target like new buildings or a sound system, and it also includes giving to the poor. Let the Holy Spirit guide you to be a generous giver to the things He puts on your heart.
________________________________________

This material has been written and created Craig Anderson and Chris Lord from COC Plenty Valley. We acknowledge the use of some material from Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren and request that any copying of this material would include acknowledgement of all these sources.


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/6/20 2:08Profile
RevEnue
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 2


 Re:

giving is good....

 2004/7/15 21:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: why give?

seeing this topic resurface reminded me that some time ago I was asked to write briefly as to why Christians give. It was designed for young Christians and new members of the local church. I thought it might gather together some of the thoughts expressed elsewhere in this thread.

ONE OF ANOTHER
In early Christian times the believers had a strong sense of belonging to each other. During the earliest times of the church they instinctively cared for each other as they were able. Speaking of those times the scriptures tell us that “great grace was upon them all” (1). Those who had practical or financial needs were helped by those who had the resources, through the local fellowship of believers. The scriptures here are not describing an ecclesiastical organization or some short lived experiment with communism. It is just an historical account of the way in which the Spirit of God was leading His people in the ordering of their lives.

They were being Spirit taught to consider the well being of others. Not looking to their own personal needs alone, but watching out for the needs of others. (2) As the fellowship of God's people spread into other places, so too did this sense of caring for each other. The fellowship in one locality spontaneously reaching out to care for others they knew to be in need. (3) It will be helpful to notice that in none of these instances were the believers ordered to give. There was no legislation. The scriptures merely record the reaction of believers to the known need of other believers.

PROOFS OF LOVE
In Paul's second letter to the fellowship of believers in Corinth he speaks about a collection which many other fellowships were making for the poor believers in Jerusalem. He uses many different terms to express this act of brotherly love. He refers to it as “the grace of God” (4), and later to “fellowship” (5), and to “`serving the saints”. (6) In one place he speaks of it under another description; “the proof (or evidence) of love” (7). He is not speaking of “proof” in the sense of convincing a doubter, but as a clear evidence of love.

This is a familiar bible theme. Genuine love must always express itself in giving. “God so loved the world that He gave” (8). It is not a law, but a simple inevitability. Giving, in one way or another, is an inescapable consequence of love. Those who love, give. Their love is an evidence in their giving. There are, of course, many different ways of giving, but the principles which we can see at work here in the giving of money are equally true when it comes to sharing our time or talents.

CHEERFUL GIVERS
The 8th & 9th chapters of 2 Corinthians contain very valuable insights into the principles at work in giving. Fundamental to all Christian giving is that it is given willingly. “Not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver”. (9) There is no legal minimum standard in the New Covenant as there was in the Old, but neither is it to be a casual or unconsidered action. It is according as “every man ... purposes in his heart” (10).

Neither is there to be foolish or impracticable irresponsibility, but “according to what a man has, and not according to what he does not have”, (11) while at the same time bearing in mind that “he who sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully, (12) and that “God is able to make all grace abound towards you”. (13)

What an amazing blend of free grace and faithful stewardship it all is. How wonderful it is that God should give us an opportunity of sharing with Him in loving and giving.

Notes:
(1) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Act 4:33 KJV)

(2) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. (Phi 2:4 KJV)

(3) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. (Act 11:27-30 KJV)

(4) Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (2Co 8:1 KJV)

(5) Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. (2Co 8:4 KJV)

(6) begging of us with much entreaty to give effect to the grace and fellowship of the service which was to be rendered to the saints. (2Co 8:4 Darby)

(7) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. (2Co 8:8 KJV)

(8) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16 KJV)

(9) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2Co 9:7 KJV)

(10) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2Co 9:7 KJV)

(11) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. (2Co 8:12 KJV)

(12) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2Co 9:6 KJV)

(13) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (2Co 9:8 KJV)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/16 4:59Profile





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