Hi Greg
you write "The entire church is living a lie" by this statement I believe Andrew Strom is referring to the instutional church system, not the true body of Christ that you become a part of when you are re-born of God.

I hesitated for more than a while before I posted my comments. You will know from some of my utterances that you have on your site that I have more than a little sympathy with many of Andrew's statements. In my mind I distinguish very clearly between Christianity and Christendom, and between the Church and this counterfeit that the world calls 'the Church'.

I think there is also a difference between Reformation and Revival although at times they come together. There is a great need for examination and 'reformation' of our ways of doing things. 'If it ain't broke, don't mend it' is not a legitimate Christian response. The good is always the enemy of the best. I have been agreeing with most of Andrew's statements for over 30 years but I know from painful experience that a 'new wineskin' is not necessarily better than an 'old' unless the 'new' had God as its maker. And a 'new' wineskin is has no more worth than an 'old' unless it contains 'new wine'.

But 'reformation' is not 'revival' and will not produce it. I have met men and women with 'humble and contrite spirits' in many denominations and in none. I have strong, and I hope biblical, views about just about everything! But I know many 'at whose feet I would gladly sit' who have equally strong AND DIFFERENT views. As a teacher I have a strong temptation to pedantry; I know my weaknesses here. I have copied a comment from the life of Anthony Norris Groves into my Bible and I remind myself of it often. It reads "what a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large, that He can help whenever He sees some good thing; whereas man withdraws, because he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his own self-love in the little scheme he had set up as perfection." I have had enough of my own 'little schemes set up as perfection' to jump on the 'little schemes set up as perfection' of others.

The 'institutional church' is really no church at all; it is a common-interest religious pressure group. The OT promise, if we can transpose it into a NT context is 'if my people who are called by my Name'. Only His people, those who hear His voice, can respond to this call.

_________________
Ron Bailey

A comment about revival in the church. I personally don't think most of the revival will be with the current church members (some, but not most). Jesus and Paul didn't spend too much time and energy trying to convert the religious. They did a little, but most of the time they went for people who knew they needed help. I do pray for laborers to be sent into the Lord's harvest, as Jesus directs in the Gospels.

"Sometimes God answers our prayers through our children," is a quote that comes to mind (David Barton). Rather than waiting for revival within Christendom, I will purposely train my child to fear and respect God and train him the way he should go, and that will include- eventually- things like reading Fox's book of Martyrs, that life isn't always wonderful on earth because of one's love for God. (I say fear because that's the beginning of wisdom, and at the same time, I show him how much I love God and revere Him all the time, not just in word but in deed also.) The fire within me cannot be quenched, whether there's revival or not.

Dear Lord, I pray for laborers to be sent into the Lord's harvest, who will faithfully and truthfully preach the whole counsel of God, in Jesus' name, amen.

_________________
Jina

Hi Andrew,

I must say you put a lot of time in this post :-) and I must say I do agree with you on some of them. but I do have a question for you.

Can you prove that Jesus was poor? I mean think about it.

1. Look at what he got when we was born? remember the 3 wise men? Do you know how much that was worth?

2. He must of had some money, because he hired 12 workers for him, that he had to keep up. And Judas was skimming off the top and the others didnt know it.

3. Did you ever stop and think why those Roman Guards wanted his robe? Surely those Pagan Guards didnt think he was Jesus, for they mocked him. HUM they must of been some very expensive cloths huh? I mean why would they want rages?

4. Even the fish gave him money!


Well I think I have made my point on that issuse. But please do tell me were it said that he was poor.

Also, didn't he say go preach to the Poor, so they wouldn't have to be poor no more?



God Bless
Daryl

_________________
Ron Halverson

I strongly disagree with you brother :-)

Yes he did empety himself, but you still didnt show me where he said he was poor. Also how can you explain the rest of my post? Why would pagan guards want rages, if he was that poor? lol

God Bless

_________________
Ron Halverson

Thank you all for your posts

I can see now what the line of thought is on this forum.

We are to be poor and just as very poor as Jesus.

Hum, well that explains this webiste disire to not to pay the tithes :-) they don't have no money to.

Anyway this will be my last post on this topic. I can see that I must be alone person, when I think of Jesus as being wealthy. I guess those seemless garments were cheap. :-)

And I guess Judas the treasurer was only counting pennies :-),

I can see your point on my issues, for I too believed your views on this poor business as well, until I started to believing God for it.

I have found that I am in a Covenant with God, and what He has is mine, and what I have is his. I ask and God Gives. Works really good. Its a term called " Hesed"

I love you guys in Christ, but I do hope you guys come out of this poor stuff and broken ol chrisitanity. For we are the Rightouness of Christ. We are Heir to God. We we should have the same mind of Christ, that considered it not robbery to consider himself equal with God. :-)

God Bless Brother and Sisters

Don't stop posting yet, if you don't mind, I don't think the discussion has been allowed to conclude.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but perhaps you would benefit from listening to this message by David Wilkerson:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2

I'd also like to recount Leonard Ravenhill's summary of John Wesley's financial behavior:

"
John died in 1791, converted at 35. Turn that round it makes 53. Add them together it makes 88. Because he was saved at 35, preached for 53 years. And you know what he left when he died? He left a handful of books, a faded Geneva gown that he preached in all over England, six silver spoons somebody gave him, six pound notes, “give one to each of the poor men that carry me to my grave.” And that’s all he left: six pound notes, six silver spoons, a handful of books, a Geneva gown and ah… there's something else... what was it, the other thing? Oh, I know, something else he left, the Methodist Church.

He could have died as rich as your famous TV preacher Sunday. Sure he made money, and he built orphanages. Sure he made money, he printed bibles. Sure he made money. He compiled, with Charles, the Methodist hymnbook and look at his orphanages.
And he died worth about thirty dollars.

He printed bibles. He printed hymnbooks. He financed missionaries to go across the earth. That’s the way to use your money. You think of the reward. Why, in God’s name, do you think it says don’t lay up treasure on earth? Lay up treasure in heaven.
"

It's included in:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2903

Do I think Judas was counting/stealing pennies? No, I think Jesus' group handled a great deal of money, but I don't think Jesus or His disciples kept it or used it to buy material things beyond that which was necessary (i.e. no luxuries). Instead, I think it was used (and used promptly) to tend to the needy.

edit:
and I have no problem with contributing 10% of my income to the ministry, indeed (if I may say it without boasting, for it is by God's grace alone) I contribute significantly more than 10% of my income, and doing so is a great joy for me. What I'm not certain of is whether the practice of "tithing" is for the New Testament Church. That said, I think we should all treat 100% of "our" money as if it were God's and God's alone, so living in luxury while Biblical ministries go under-funded (and you know about them) is inexcusable. Remember the rich man and Lazarus.