| Poster | Thread | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Proving by proof text | | Quote:
I know you've said this before,
Quote:
[i]There is no biblical basis for any of what you have stated.[/i]
but it no way explains this biblical record of Jesus Himself.
"Jesus Himself"
This alone ought to be enough of it's own answer.
Quote:
In the moment of practicality when praying for a person, one has to know who one is hearing, and one must believe the revelation the Spirit is giving, is true. There are other ways to discern what kind of spirit is binding a person.
"One has to know". Precisely the root of the assumption, according to what? What basis is there in scripture to support this conclusion? Quote:
What worm has shared in the opening post about the photographs, accords with observations I have made in people I've met, who are in other bondages. There is a common appearance.
You have your observations and I have my experience. What has this to do with a question raised by another poster?
I have 'seen' "demons" swirling about in my head, a vision of sorts with the eyes closed, hideous, laughing creatures, ironically linked to exactly this addiction. Were they real? Or induced in an imagination under the influence? That I can recall those instances to mind instantaneously, what does it prove?
It proves one experience that cannot be then made into a doctrine of assumption that I would then go about using as a buttress that is not spoken of in scripture. Was it the product of an illusion or delusion caused by the drug or an influence the other way round? I don't know and I don't need to know. It also proves that like drugs themselves we do not know what we are playing with entering these realms and to begin categorizing demons by name, by locality and region and all the other imaginations is highly suspect and dangerous when it is spoken to only by silence in scripture.
You can look at an appearance and I can tell you of my own photograph with it's dark rings around the eyes from days without sleep, without eating. I can tell you of years of daily abuse and being frightened by a plummet into the darkness that awakened me to quit cold so powerful was it. I could tell of how after seven years how I fell right back into the grip to satisfy a narcissistic bent to somehow render a payback to a broken relationship that was all concocted in my mind. I know all to well by experience the rack on the nervous system, the paranoia, the overtaking of all things to feed the hunger that is never satisfied but only pacified in small doses of 'relief' from the ravages of speed, crank, meth - Choose your poison.
There is something coming up quite frequently in our parts here that is becoming more and more alarming. And that is a displacement by over exaggeration on one off things, mentions and aberrations in scripture that some would build whole doctrines around, use them as proof texts and supports for every experience we encounter.
You have your experience and I have mine. Praise God for deliverance but moreover praise God for the [i]Deliverer[/i].
I am clinging to the scriptures for dear life
_________________
Mike Balog
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|  2007/7/4 9:22 | Profile | Spitfire
Member
Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633
| | Re: Ginny......it made me weep. | | Quote:
The devil, the destroyer, is getting more desperate everyday, his end is coming, and he knows it.
Worm, I totally agree with you. I watched this documentary about 2 weeks ago and I, too, was greatly disturbed. I even spoke to Dorcas about it. I believe the anti-christ is definitely in a rage and is using Methamphetemine to destroy lives.Quote:
We got to protect our young ones, not tyrannically, or stifling, but with words of Power, wise and loving and gentle as led by the Holy Spirit.
Amen, Brother! Dian. |
| | 2007/7/4 10:39 | Profile | enid
Member
Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England
| | Re: "Meth" the name of a demon. | | I haven't watched the video, but reading various posts reminded me of a book I have.
It doesn't deal with demon possession, but with territorial spirits.
Here is a paragraph from the book.
'A classic and often repeated example of evidence that is beyond confirmation is the story of a missionary serving in a town straddling the border between Uruguay and Brazil.
The main street in the town runs straight down the border.
The missonary noted that people presented with tracts on the Uruguay side would refuse them. Once the same people crossed over to the Brazil side, they would receive the tracts with profuse thanks. The missionary prayed over this puzzle and God purportedly revealed that the ruling spirits had been broken on one side, but not on the other.
Some of the details in this story cry out for further investigation.
Was someone actually so careless as to bind the spirits over one half the town, and leave the other half intact?
Do geographical limitations of territorial spirits correspond precisely to the recent, shifting and often ill-defined political boundaries of nations, extending even to one side of a street?
How is it that the spirits are stronger in secular Uruguay that in spirtistic Brazil?'
Sorry to be so long. But I said all that to say this in relation to the thread.
What the missionary said in this story has no scriptual basis, and neither does all the demonic happenings concerning 'meth' refered to.
There is demonic possession, no doubt about it.
But what were these demons doing before these drugs came along? Were they just unemployed?
Not being sarcastic, just wondering.
This is what I believe we Christians should be busy doing, taken from Acts 6v4.
'But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word'.
God bless. |
| | 2007/7/4 11:22 | Profile | jarona
Member
Joined: 2007/7/3
Posts: 162
The Earth
| | Re: | | you mean no biblical basis for the specific names of demons i listed? (in my opinion) there are many truths concerning demons that are not in the bible and there are also false things out there about deliverance so it is good to be careful and to get Gods' understanding whether it is true or not. The way I look at it is if we needed to know those names of demons then Christ would have spoken specifically about those names of demons. God gave us what we needed to know and gave us examples of his work in casting out demons like the man with the legion. Jesus could have mentioned every spirit specifically in the man with many demons but it was not needed to do so. I think because He gave us power over all the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt us; And that whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever we loose on earth will be loosed in heaven; That the scriptures we have concerning deliverance are sufficient enough for the task of casting out demons the signs that Christ said would follow those who believe. He gave us the sufficient amount of scriptures needed to carry out his work. There is a e-book people can read for free online called Blumhardt's battle the story is based on an occurance that took place in the 1800's i think. Anyways the thing I wanted to say about that was, this guy who gave an account of the battle he had that went on for yrs. with demons in a possessed woman he knew very little about deliverance at the time this event happened in his life yet with Christ in him and faith and perseverance with prayer he was victorious because Jesus Christs' power won the battle against the demons in this possessed woman. So I believe God gave us what we need to know about deliverance in the bible, and I think God wants us to learn things about it along the way as His Spirit brings truth and understanding to us.
_________________
Jaron
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| | 2007/7/4 11:47 | Profile |
| | Re: enid | | Quote:
This is what I believe we Christians should be busy doing, taken from Acts 6v4.
'But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word'.
and part of the word, the call, is contained in the 61st chapter of Isaiah:
"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners."
watch the video, you'll actually see what I'm referencing, that these poor souls are prisoners held in darkness by a demon who's name is meth, and only Christ can break their bonds, and we, as His Body can act as His Hands.
are they the only souls held in darkness? oh no. There are a multitude, a legion of dark beings, strongholds so to speak that hold afflicted lost souls in dark and dank places, and I believe that it is our duty and high and heavenly calling to speak and be light in dark places, only thru the Provisions granted thru Christ Jesus.
To me, if you speak hellfire to these lost souls, they'd say, "so what, I'm already in hell, tell me something I don't know". So one lets the Holy Spirit do the speaking thru you, tell of the Good News, speak of the Light and Love of Jesus, of laying down in green pastures, speak of a Heavenly Jerusalem, speak of the Kingdom of God AT HAND, and maybe thru the tender mercies of God, the heart you speak to will be yielded and open.
But first, the demon has to be cast out.
just random thoughts.
May God bless you. |
| | 2007/7/5 1:18 | | Spitfire
Member
Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633
| | Re: unemployed demons | | Quote:
But what were these demons doing before these drugs came along? Were they just unemployed?
Enid, I love how you put things. Is the the point that you are making here, that you don't believe there is a demon called, Meth? Or do you believe in casting out demons? Or maybe that we just shouldn't focus on that? Since you said,Quote:
This is what I believe we Christians should be busy doing, taken from Acts 6v4.
Quote:
'But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word'.
Help me, because I'm being serious. I understood your story from the book, and I understand that there isn't any validating scripture for that proposed verdict of a demon being bound on one side of the street but not the other. I understand that the only referrence that we have in the Bible of a demon having a name is the one called Legion, which sounds like it was actually a group name.
So, don't hate me here, is the thing which has been called into question, whether or not demons have names? And is it also in question, whether or not you call it by the correct name when taking authority over it?
So, are you saying that we should just be praying and minstering the word? I really want to understand what you were saying. Thanks,Dian. |
| | 2007/7/5 6:28 | Profile |
| | Re: "Meth" the name of a demon | |
Tears_of_joy asked dorcas
Quote:
May I ask you, when did that happen? Before or after you was born of the Spirit? And do you mean by "spirit of fear" a demon?
OK. I'm going to preface my answer with a few comments. First, if a person doesn't believe any spirits can hang on to a Christian's life after they are born again, because of unhealed wounds, it means they have to carve our a theology which accommodates this presumption.
Secondly, I have looked in the New Testament several times for any alternative definition of demon, evil spirit and unclean spirit, which would accommodate the idea that there is some significant difference between them, and I believe I've found the Greek word is the same, and it is the writer who has introduced the adjective or noun, as if this is significant for us to understand. I have never found the word 'dispositon' with regard to an [i]attitude[/i] or [i]behaviour[/i] (understanding even behaviours have something to do with how one thinks), in scripture. Just like I've never found the word 'loyal' in scripture.
So, yes, I believe I was born again and yes I believe that spirit of fear was 'a spirit'.
I have come to believe there is a hierarchy of spirits, from my reading of the experiences of some missionaries, who also describe terratorial spirits. I lived in Africa as a child and know this is acknowledged by those who worship those spirits.
There is no difficulty (to my mind) in a territorial spirit being bound by a jurisdiction such as a country boundary, whether it cuts across a mountain, runs down a river or a street as described. There are spirits confined to homes, or individual rooms in houses.
As Annie has said, His word in His name is enough to move them. Of course, sometimes there are many spirits in one room. This, of course, is what Jesus said when He described a life as a 'house'.
Enid,
An unemplyed spirit roams around looking for somewhere to live. All spirits are looking for a residence of some sort. Jesus told us this.
To add to what I remarked above, it is the woundedness of people's lives which lay them open to spirits as much as their actively chosen personal sins.
This is why Jesus was so desirous to heal and to cast out spirits. He knew they would not be open to spirits if they were healed AND they turned away from sin.
I think we see from Legion's story, that no-one is unable to RUN to Jesus, no matter how tormented they are by spirits. (Mark 5) And, no-one can blame their sinning on the power of a spirit in their life. Whichever they need first - deliverance or healing - Jesus can do it if they will turn to Him. This is another battle of mind and will which is on the comer's side, no-one else's, in certain cases.
John said 'fear hath torment' and many spirits are very afraid of being cast out. Often, this is the emotion of which a person struggling with a spirit is most aware. Understanding this can make it much easier for them to see Jesus as a comapssionate Deliverer.
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| | 2007/7/5 6:58 | |
| | Re: "Meth" the name of a demon. | |
Re: Proving by proof text
Hi Mike,
'Jesus Himself'.
The whole of John 17 is relevant.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 " I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as [u]You, Father, [i]are[/i] in Me, and I in You; [b]that they also may[/b] be one in Us[/u], that the world may believe that You sent Me.
23 "[u]I in them, and You in Me[/u]; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
One day, Mike, I believe you will be free of this battle, enough to KNOW in this realm, what He is giving you to minister as He leads you.
I have rarely [i]tried[/i] to 'cast out' a spirit or a demon in that direct way 'in the name of Jesus', but I have, and, I've prayed with or for [people] in His name, and spoken the word He gives me at that time. The Spirit or that other person comfirms this is the word of God to them, as respond to it. (Response may be negative.) Or, I have exercised faith when speaking into their lives because they have been open to His word, as they engaged in meaningful communication at heart level.
To some extent, one's ministry is limited to one's testimony, and so the challenge from God is personal - for [i]me[/i] to move on - before I can lead another person further. He seems to weave His work in my own life, with that of His work in others'. Surely this is a natural part of being His body reaching out to the world, and nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed by.
Quote:
It proves one experience that cannot be then made into a doctrine of assumption that I would then go about using as a buttress that is not spoken of in scripture.
Mike,
When the scripture describes a person's behaviour like the child being thrown into fire or water, that is the appearance of something abnormal. With those people who were deaf and dumb, that is the evidence of something abnormal. [i]Discernment[/i] comes from God, that the [i]cause[/i] in these cases, is[i]spiritual[/i], not (what we would call) physical.
This is where hearing His word by the Spirit in one's understanding brings one to the point of exercising faith. Had He not spoken, then there is no revelation to respond to. Any action in response to an mere observation is carnal, risky and to be discouraged. There may be, though, a stage when one has an answer, but it is not time to deliver it. Getting the timing right, has something to do with walking in the Spirit patiently.
The faith to respond to a revelation comes with the revelation, in a similar way that true conviction of sin is accompanied by a repentant attitude and the hope of salvation. These are works of the Spirit, not man.
Quote:
You have your experience and I have mine. Praise God for deliverance but moreover praise God for the Deliverer.
I am clinging to the scriptures for dear life
Amen. I hope you ask youself questions like 'How did the disciples know which people to raise from the dead?' 'How did they know what to pray for healing?' and 'How did they cast out evil spirits?' ... I do.
Would it not have been crazy if Peter and John hadn't noticed the reason the man at the gate Beautiful was begging, was because he couldn't walk? It wasn't an [u]undue[/u] [i]presumption[/i] on Peter's part, that 'Rise up and walk' healed his legs.
I do feel that perhaps these practicalities are more obvious than we realise when we're merely reading. And Jesus' example of asking the blind man what he wanted Jesus to do for him, or the same to a leper, are examples to us not to assume we know what is in the person's heart.
But, knowing the answer to those questions, the Deliverer can give us the words to pray which will bring the needed release. |
| | 2007/7/5 7:47 | | enid
Member
Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England
| | Re: | | Hello Spitfire,
Concerning your questions, my main point is that we seem to be taking scripture further than God intended.
We are naming a substance a demon, where in scripture does God do that?
Perhaps in Prov 20v1, 'Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
Also in Proverbs 23v29-35 it tells us of the destruction that alcohol can do.
But we have to question, is the demon in the meth or the person who takes it?
We can cast out demons as and when the situation arises, but it should not be our focus.
Did the apostles focus on it or did they focus on prayer and the ministry of the word?
Another thing is that Jesus asked the man his name, to which he replied, Legion.
He didn't name it, He asked.
Why would Jesus ask that? Don't you think He already knew?
In Luke 13v10-17 Jesus is in the synagouge and heals a woman with a spirit of infirmity.
Verse 16 says that satan had bound her 18 years.
Jesus didn't ask her how long she had been like that, he already knew.
In naming demons Jesus commanded a deaf and dumb spirit in Mark 9v25 to come out of a boy.
The point is, I don't know if we should go around naming things as demonic when looking at scripture, we have nothing valid to go by.
I've heard someone describe chocolate as a demon.
How much further do we take this?
There is enough error and false doctrine in the church already without being distracted by something that seems questionable.
It could divert our attention from God on to something else.
This post is long enough.
God bless. |
| | 2007/7/5 9:13 | Profile | running2win
Member
Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA
| | Re: | | This is a disturbing thread. I agree with Mike and Enid,
there's alot of extra-biblical assuption and presumption going on here. Demonic posession is a serious thing that takes serious things to bring it about. I've seen many many people bound by fears and alcohol and drugs and you name it but I've only seen a couple of cases of genuine demonic posession and I promise you it's on a totally different level than what people are discussing here on this thread. When I came to Christ I was completely bound by sins of almost every kind but I wasn't full of demons of every kind.
I would say it's fairly likely that quite a number of meth users are posessed but that doesn't by any means mean that they're ALL demonically posessed. Is someone that smokes posessed by a demon of nicotene? That's a silly idea. I know many very dedicated christians with a cafeine(splng?) addiction from coffee. Are they posessed by the demon of cafeine? That's a laughable idea.
An addiction is not a demon. Fear is not a demon. In some cases it can be caused be a demon but it is not a demon.
Now a question for you Mike,
when you were born again were you posessed and needed demons cast out of you?
_________________
Jeff Mollman
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| | 2007/7/5 9:44 | Profile |
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