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 Re: Question

I have a question...

My intention is not to be contentious, I really would like to know what people think, according to the scripture.

If the Word of God is alive, and powerful, and
sharper than any two-edged sword...

If the Word of God is the means by which God has chosen to cause faith to arise in sinners and saints hearts, and if salvation comes by grace through faith...

If God says His Word will not return void... (meaning...have no effect, it will either condemn or redeem...in both God is seen/ Glorified)

If Jesus said His Kingdom advances by the preaching of that Word. (in a Church building, on the street, in a house...wherever)...

If Jesus Himself used the Word to defeat the devil and his lies...

If all things pertaining to life and Godliness are bound up in that Word, which is Christ...


Than why should there be such a necessity for miracles?

Why would I want to seek God for miracles?

 2007/7/2 12:56
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother Mahoney,

I would add, since we have been given every spiritual blessing in Christ, why should one settle for such paltry things like tongues, and miracles when we have a living Christ!!!!

It is interesting to see how the Church has dealt with these issues throughout history. It seems that after Azusa, people went bonkers in seeking tongues, second blessings, and anything but Christ Himself. now fast forward to where we are now, and you can really see how men can ramble in tongues(uninterpreted), and be taken seriously, or that men like John Wimber can deceive many into believing they have gold tooth fillings, or spiritual drunkeness.

One thing I have never understood about much of what goes on in the Charismatic movement is that Christ Himself said the Holy Spirit would testify of Him. Much if not all of these "signs and wonders" supposedly done by the Spirit do not testify of Christ at all, but rather to a man.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/2 13:10Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Because the same word that you just very eloquently praised admonishes us to seek the gifts of the spirit, especially the greater gifts (prophecy). It also explicitly tells us in several locations that the word of God, when preached correctly with Christ crucified and ressurected as it's focal point, miracles, signs and wonders will follow. You are not given the option in scripture to pick and choose (this isn't old country buffet, or Barnhill's for the southerners). The same word you praised admonishes you to expect them. Plain and simple.
Jeff


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Jeff

 2007/7/2 13:11Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

My concern though is that people do not get grounded in Christ by signs. True they provide a temporary jolt of joy, but in the long haul if you do not know Christ, no amount of miracles will produce joy, and you Spiritual life will be one big roller coaster ride.

Christ is sufficient, and I had rather know Him through the Scriptures than through miracles and signs any day. Not because I am better or more spiritual, but because I am weak and easily led astray after other loves.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/2 13:20Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
My concern though is that people do not get grounded in Christ by signs. True they provide a temporary jolt of joy, but in the long haul if you do not know Christ, no amount of miracles will produce joy, and you Spiritual life will be one big roller coaster ride.

Christ is sufficient, and I had rather know Him through the Scriptures than through miracles and signs any day. Not because I am better or more spiritual, but because I am weak and easily led astray after other loves.



this is a very good statement, anything less then Christ is a loss.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/2 13:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We do judge by what is written therein, if the man believes that the power of God to perform today is dead, can we rightly say that this is a tragedy?



I've read the book. Have you? He never said that.

Krispy

 2007/7/2 13:29









 Re:

Quote:

FireinmyBones1 wrote:
Because the same word that you just very eloquently praised admonishes us to seek the gifts of the spirit, especially the greater gifts (prophecy). It also explicitly tells us in several locations that the word of God, when preached correctly with Christ crucified and ressurected as it's focal point, miracles, signs and wonders will follow. You are not given the option in scripture to pick and choose (this isn't old country buffet, or Barnhill's for the southerners). The same word you praised admonishes you to expect them. Plain and simple.
Jeff



So then the question arises:

If the Word of God is preached, and their are no visible miracles, signs, or wonders following, has that preached Word failed. Is it of no effect.

Because the point is a serious one.

I don't know about you, but I so want to have an utter dependence and confidence in the Word of God. And if miracles, signs and wonders are the only way to know if God is confirming His Word, then I guess we in America here don't have much hope.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I do believe that miracles and gifts are for today. But, as Roarlinglamb stated:

Quote:
My concern though is that people do not get grounded in Christ by signs. True they provide a temporary jolt of joy, but in the long haul if you do not know Christ, no amount of miracles will produce joy, and you Spiritual life will be one big roller coaster ride.



And the visible evidence of this is found in the charasmatic/ Pentecostal movements...in which churches I have spent pretty much my entire christian experience.

Quote:
You are not given the option in scripture to pick and choose (this isn't old country buffet, or Barnhill's for the southerners



I live near Lancaster, PA, so I would rather choose Shady Maple Smorgasbord...their buffet line is 450 feet long, and their food is homemade and incredible! :-)

 2007/7/2 14:05
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Mmmm...Buffet sounds pretty good right about now.

Anyways :) . . .

Personally I think that the whole Miracles VS. Scripture debate is crazy...just to be honest. Nowhere in scripture is there a hint of evidence that miracles will ever cease at the closing of the apostolic age. Yes I've heard all of the Perfect=New Testament/1 Cor 13 arguement - and I repeat - "Nowhere in scripture is there a hint of evidence that miracles will ever cease at the closing of the apostolic age."
Miracles are never meant to root you and ground you in your faith. They are in many cases proofs or evidences that the word or message being brought forth is the word of God. Jesus told the Pharisee's in one instance, that He healed so that they might know that He had power on earth to forgive sins. In other instances He healed because He was moved with compassion for the oppressed. Yes we must be rooted and grounded in the word. And if our entire relationship with God is only based on phenomena than you can be sure that when shakings come, there may be some falling going on. Jesus told Thomas that there is a greater blessing reserved for those who believe without first experiencing anything in the sense realm (yet He still allowed him to see). Yet He told the sisters of Lazarus that if they would first believe, they would indeed see (experience via the senses) the glory of God. I'm just saying that we do not have to have an "either or..." mentality when it comes to this. One can be rooted and grounded in the word and living in the realm of miraculous, supernatural Christianity. (which last time I checked, was the only genuine kind available.) The word and the Spirit are not in opposition one to another, rather they are meant to work in tandem with one another. Remember that the word of God is likened unto a sword in Ephesians 6. Yet it is specifically called the "sword of the SPIRIT which is the WORD of God." The Word of God and the Spirit of God are never in contrast to one another, but are rather meant to function together.
Just some thoughts...
jeff


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Jeff

 2007/7/2 14:15Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i found this article, i think this is one of the things we lack. And when we lack the genuine, we make it up by other things.

The art of preaching

(Letters of J. C. Philpot)

We are overrun with a shallow, superficial ministry,
which is destitute of all life, savor, and power. A dry,
dead-letter scheme of doctrine, as mathematically
correct as the squares of a chess-board, prevails,
where what is called "truth" is preached. And to
move Bible texts on the squares as pawns, is called
"the art of preaching".

How simple is truth!

Man's misery--God's mercy.

The aboundings of sin--the super-aboundings of grace.

The depths of the fall--the heights of the recovery.

The old man--the new man.

The diseases of the soul--the balm of a Savior's blood.

These lessons learned are in the furnace of inward
experience. How different from . . .
the monkish austerity of the Ritualist,
the lip service of the Pharisee, and
the dry Calvinistic formulary!

What a dreadful lack is there of true preaching now!
I look round and see so few men qualified to feed the
church of God. We are overrun with parsons, but, oh
dear! what are they? I cannot but attribute much
of the low state of the churches to the ministers!

Ezekiel 34 is a true picture of the false shepherds.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/2 14:35Profile
Isaiah64
Member



Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re: Charismatic Chaos "Does God do miracles today?" - MacArthur

Quote:
And the thing that always amazes me is, if the Holy Spirit were going to release His power, why would He release it to authenticate the people who teach bad theology? If He wanted to authenticate anybody with miracles, you could be sure it would be those who were the truest and the purest and the most profound and Biblical, and the most skilled and dedicated teachers of the Word of God who were teaching the truth.




"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
1 Cornithians 1:27-30

By no means am I defending the televangelists and other so-called "signs and wonders" people, but the above by quote by MacArthur doesn't sound right at all. It reflects not only a faulty understanding of Scripture, but hints of pride and, to be honest, reminds me of the pharisees.
"Oh, signs and wonders CAN'T be occuring today--otherwise they would be occuring through [i]our[/i] church and [i]our[/i] denomination since we have the truest, most accurate Bible teaching around." I don't mean to unjustly judge Mr. MacArthur, but this is how it came across to me.

I find it interesting that Paul Washer, a man who has been in presence of God, has the exact opposite to say as MacArthur:

"I feel that there is a need to hear that our God is a living God, and some of you young men who are so keen and so interested in being so theologically sound need to understand you can reduce God down to a proposition, and it's intellectual death. And God [i]will[/i] raise up a man and use him whose theology and knowledge is not as pristine as yours--if his heart is there and he's believing God."

"I'd take a Leonard Ravenhill over 20 dead Calvinists."

"So much of Baptist theology is nothing more than a reactionary movement against heresy, but it becomes a heresy in itself."

I wonder what MacArthur would say if he went to a country like China or India where the Lord is moving mightily, and where people are truly getting healed, demons are being cast out, and people are being raised from the dead. These brothers and sisters have no Bible schools or seminaries...they are the furthest thing from 'intellectual'--and yet the Lord uses them more than any of these theologically trained, big-headed seminary graduates in America.

 2007/7/2 14:38Profile





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