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Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA


Nile Quotes:Piper equates the glory of the world to the glory of God.

This is part the message being preached:
"Have you ever witnessed a last second winning shot in basketball? It's glorious isn't it! And if you love that, you love God...because He is even more glorious!"
"Have you ever seen the Two Towers? When Gandalf comes over the hill to save the day, it's just amazing! Why, it's sends chills up your spine it's so glorious! And to think, all of that was created in some movie studio - imagine how glorious God is!" [He uses that example. Try the same argument but with the Matrix and you'll see how bad it is if you don't already.]
"The olympics are just astounding! The things those people can do - wow. When I see the olympics, I just think of how glorious God is."
Nile quotes:John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Nile, thanks for your post and your experiences with Dr. Piper speak volumes of wisdom.As I am a young believer just learning about this gentlemen and looking for someone who is respected with a reformed perspective and has a genuine Joy-filled relationship with Jesus-Piper seems to fit the bill although I am very cautious who i listen too your cautions are welcomed and duly noted brother,However did'nt Jesus use illustrations from the beauty of the world He created to show they paled in comparison to His glory see Matthew 6:28-30 I did'nt hear Him speak those words you quoted nor was I inside his heart when I believe he spoke them,But I don't believe he was "Equating" them with the Glory of our Lord just using them for comparison to show how weak and pale they are,But again I trust your judgement on this as you have the experience in the matter.
Also in quoting John 2:15-16
What is the correct interpreation of this verse? Does'nt it mean that we are not to Love things God gives us as Idols which of course would make sense anyway.I.E.I love my wife and Children but hopefully not more than God Himself
On the last question you would have me ask myself:I'M guessing he's so popular because he's a good teacher not that your implying this but just because he's popular does'nt mean he's bad Charles Stanley is very popular and at least I think he's a good teacher.Maybe it's none of my business but praise God your unrepentant family members listen to him I dont know why they would but I cant get my Dad,sister,aunts uncles anybody to listen to him or anybody I wish I were in your shoes in that respect.If you have yet to meet someone who does'nt like John Piper it sound like your blessed with all Christian friends,I'd like to have some of those friends.I live in Massachusetts and I cant get anybody to listen to anything except my wife and children.Thank you for your help Nile
Love in Christ


 2007/6/26 21:52Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Brother Brian,
There are many wonderful teachers from a Reformed perspective that have been of tremendous help and encouragement to me in my walk. Joel Beeke is one I would reccomend, you can search for him on

I highly reccomend giving this page a look

[url=]Monergism Multimedia[/url]

These are mostly MP3's, and can be downloaded to listen to.

Paul Washer is also a wonderful preacher from the Reformed belief, and one who the Lord used to start me down the road towards Reformed and Calvinistic Theology.

I would also highly(maybe more than any other thing) reccomend you listen to The Whitehorse Inn

[url=]Whitehorse Inn[/url]

patrick heaviside

 2007/6/26 22:26Profile

Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC


Brian, it sounds like you've got a good handle on the situation brother!

The analogies he gives are definitely true in a sense - God is more awesome than anything in the world! Piper may very well be teaching something that is true, but since I don't know his heart either I can only speak from my experience and what impression his teachings have left on me (being as darkened in heart as I am).
Let me also say that I would take John Piper over Rick Warren 10 times out of 10 :-D

To know that my remarks have been dully noted makes my night, hehe.

With true love from God!

Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/26 22:28Profile

Joined: 2007/6/10
Posts: 25

 Re: Dr. John Piper

Hi Brian!

I consider myself a armeniast, yet I have all the respect for Dr. John Piper. Why? because he has a passion for the Glory of God. I have heard him preach at his church a few times, and read his book on prayer and fasting and have read a few shorter works of his.

His emphasis on Christ is very good. So what you get is biblical teaching that allows you to repsond to the person of christ rather then psychology which gives no lasting power. Thats what seperates Piper from a lot of other preachers.

Also his Christian Hedonism really spoke to me about the awesome pleasure of God. It does not negate suffering... Piper teaches about that as well. Simply stated we should be overjoyed that we know Christ.... oh how marvelous this is, to know The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, what wonderful pleasure.

Some calvanist are so pre-occupied about everybody beleivng exactly what they beleive they don't talk about Christ very much. Piper is not one of those.. his Center of teaching is on the person of Christ and the Cross from what i have 1st hand heard.

Obviously he is not perfect, but seeing him first hand preach I noticed a genuine zeal for Christ which encouraged my heart to read scripture and pray.

To me this is acid test of Good teachers, they cause you to thirst and hunger after christ and his word. You desire to read about God and pray with him when your finished. This is why I never stop listening to Leonard Ravenhill. FRom the first time I heard him, my spirit within me beginning longing for more prayer. Consistent listening to his sermons has conistently whetted my appetite for prayer. In my humble opinion 'teaching' was not really his first aim, he was more of a preacher 1st, teacher 2nd. People would necessarily listen to him for his theology. Piper is very interesting, I beleive he is a very gifted teacher, he is able to take sections of scripture and teach you some of the meaning behind the words. I think people like him because he is excited what he is talking about. His teaching causes me to Glory that we serve such a wonderful God.

anyways, he gets thumbs up from me.


 2007/6/26 23:07Profile

Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


Mile said: If I explain God to anyone as John Piper does in examples like these, there is no one on Earth who would reject God!

That's the point. God isn't someone to run away from instead He is someone to run towards to.

Pastor Bob Coy has this style of evangelism as well. He is a Calvary Chapel pastor in Fort Lauderdale Florida.

Boy Coy refers to it as 'taste and see the Lord is good.' (Ps. 34:8)

I believe this is biblical evangelism. Because today we hear 'turn or burn' but there is no grace or love or humility in their preaching. No real 'drawing or wooing' to God. No courtship time before the marriage. No friendship before marriage. If you have no friendship or courtship before a marriage, exspect divorce. (Now, I'm not saying this is absolute but I believe it's why you see a 'falling away' because their is no friendship/courtship to Christ; or in biblical terms, preparing the soil and sowing a seed)

(I'm speaking more generally now)
Revival by too many on this website, and I try to say this with as much love as possible, is making people feel like crap. In other words, Revival in many people's mind is doing the work of God without God.

The bible says 'For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, [u]peace[/u] and [b]joy[/b] in the Holy Spirit,' (Rom. 14:17) If the kingdom is peace and joy, why don't we preach that and display that? Yes, it's holiness but that's ONLY 33%.

Many people look at Spurgeon and Wesley and wish we were them. Well, Spurgeon had an orphanage and loved on them (the children). Do you aspire to do this as well or just preach the 'hell fire and brimstone' messages?

Wesley loved his wife, even though she treated him worse than dirt. Is your mantality, "I'll show my wife, if she is ever like that"?

Watch yourself.(This is a general statement [u]not[/u] to Nile) That you've rejected the GREATEST commandments for what you perceive as 'holiness'. Don't forget Christ said the GREATEST two commandments were "Love God and Love others" [b]not[/b] "Preach the Truth and Show them their sin".

Also, Piper has lower standards than I believe is right...others will disagree...but [u]entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. Especialy not secular movies like Lord of the Rings or secular events like football and basketball games.[/u] I don't see how Christians can enjoy watching unbelievers pridefully compete with each other while getting paid millions of dollars to do so... [u]Piper also approves of rap music,[/u] which I think is erroneous (which I say based on much research and on much firsthand experience).

This sounds like an 'escapism' belief. Christ doesn't call the healthy but the sick. Don't forget that non-believers don't go to church, they go to worldly event.

But about the 'entertainment' side of things. If the kingdom of God is part joy and it's within you (Luke 17:21). Then, with those two things. Don't you think that their can be joy anywhere? I believe God likes laughter and joy, if not then why would He say the kingdom is joy (Rom. 14:17)?

So, God likes entertainment but to put it as an idol, that is a problem. I think Piper has a good balance of that, I've listened to a few of his messages about addressing this problem. He is like 'the point of Christian Hedonism isn't about finding your delight in things but instead God through things, places and events.' Again, his term (Christian Hedonism) means a lot of things, non-contrary. The definition/quote was to address the problem not it's solo definition. It's mainly about lifting up Christ.

Oh, and Lord of the Rings wasn't founded secular. It was an allegory about Christ. The ring symbolizes sin. It's easy to talk about Christ when you have something someone can relate to (John 4).

Why is John Piper so popular? [u]My unrepentent family members like him.[/u] Teenagers I know living in sin like him. Churches who teach easy-believism like him. I liked him before I was saved. In fact, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't like John Piper. This does not automatically discredit him, but it does make me seriously question his teaching.

Praise God! They are hearing the message of Christ.

[b]If[/b] you think people 'liking' believers is "wrong" sorry but that idea isn't biblical. Check Acts 2:47 and Acts 3:11 *(Out of the people that hated the church it was mainly the religious leaders of the day and the government leaders because the church was gaining tremendous influence, more than the government and religious/godless system. Also, I believe their is a Scripture that they wanted to kill Jesus because 'everyone would believe' if He stayed alive; I couldn't find it.)*

We are called to be salt and Salt is something most people use. But if you get enough salt. You'll want the Water that will make you never thirst again. I don't believe being a Christian is a 'calling to make people feel uncomfortable' but [u]instead 'to see the face, word, and actions of Christ'.[/u] Or as Bob Coy says, "Taste and See the Lord [b]is Good[/b]". (Side note; I don't go to his church, it would be a 4 hour drive to it. :-P But I listen to him on podcast)

Dave said
Some calvanist are so pre-occupied about everybody beleivng exactly what they beleive they don't talk about Christ very much. Piper is not one of those.. his Center of teaching is on the person of Christ and the Cross from what i have 1st hand heard.

Amen. That's why I like Piper so much. Amen! Let us all press on toward the heavenly calling.

 2007/6/27 2:30Profile

Joined: 2005/4/18
Posts: 41


So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith, rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.[/b]

1) " . . . God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith . . . "

My belief: God after seeing the beginning to end made a judgment that those people who stood for Him until the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22b (KJV) but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2) " . . . rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.".[/b]

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is not given in a vacuum. It looks for faith for it to be given. Grace is a gift in a sense that it can not be bought & can not be worked for.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[b]The problem with the understanding of "salvation by grace" is that people think that it's all God's work. Salvation by grace is God's work plus man's responsibility (I did not say "plus man's work").[/b] Man's responsibility is to do the work that God laid for him. But who will empower man to do it? God will but it is man's free will/choice to do or not to do the work laid for him by God. [b]Since it is God who will empower man, then it is still God's grace not man's own work.[/b]

Revelation 19:8 (KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This passage says righteousness of saints not righteousness of Jesus; cross reference to 1Jn3:7

1 John 3:7 (KJV) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Imputed righteousness is the righteousness we receive when we get born-again. This enables us to have fellowship with God. This enables God to work in us.

Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the [b]righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith[/b]: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Matthew 3:15 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us [b] to fulfil all righteousness. [/b] Then he suffered him.

Imparted righteousness is our righteous acts in obedience to Him; our righteous & holy life lived for Him & through Him.

You have your own standards; we have standards; the world has standards. Do you think God has no standard? God does not saved people anyhow; as we say here in Singapore "anything can" meaning anything is ok. He has standard & requirements. As I always teach, God standard is holiness / purity & righteousness. [b]God does not save unconditionally.[/b]

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 (KJV) 12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

[u][b]ON A SIDE NOTE:[/b][/u]

Revelation 17:14 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

In my own terms, the three stages of our fellowship with God:

1) Called. Everybody is called to salvation but not all will be saved. Those only who will qualify. To qualify is to receive God as their Lord & Saviour.

2) Chosen. Among the qualified "called ones" some will be chosen to serve God in a deeper level. The choosing of God is not at random; again we have to qualify. To qualify is to be responsible to the talents/works given/laid to us.

3) Faithful. These are the people who qualified in the "chosen" stage.

To mention a few:

Called & Chosen: Samson, Saul & Solomon

Called, Chosen & Faithful: Abraham, Moses & David

In a believer's walk with God, we can be ZERO FRUITFULNESS

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (KJV) 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Matthew 13:8 (KJV) But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

A testimony I heard from a pastor. A certain pastor was praying and he said to the Lord "I am glam am producing fruit thirtyfold." And God responded "That is NEGATIVE SEVENTY."

God sees it differently. [b]
Is it possible to do hundredfold? Yes, the passage says so "some produced hundredfold."[/b]

Acts 13:22 (KJV) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them [b]David[/b] to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which [b]shall fulfil all my will. [/b]

 2007/6/27 5:51Profile

Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 John Piper is BAD!

I'm surprised that no one has brought up this aspect of John Piper yet.

I've got no idea who produced it, but once you hear it, you'll never think of the reformed view of Total Depravity the same way again regardless of whether you agree or disagree.

[url=]John Piper is BAD![/url]

Benjamin Valentine

 2007/6/27 7:03Profile

Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427



Nile wrote:

John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

[b]...but entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. [/b]

I have tried to explain my thoughts, but have likely done poorly...please ask questions if you're confused.

God give us wisdom,


I am one those that disagree with your statement about entertainment. I think that there are basically two general forms of entertainment:

I was going to try and "name" the two different types of entertainment, but my brain ain't thinking well enough, right now. lol.

Entertainment #1: Entertainment becomes an idol. The person spends the majority of his time or life filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God. This certianly is the wrong form of entertainment for anyone, including Christians, to have.

Entertainment #2: Celebrating, or having fun in moments of life that create memories and wonderful fellowship experiences, whether it is between the individual and God, or the individual and others.

Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.

Most of the following holidays have been celebrated prior to, and during Jesus' 33 years on this earth:

Shabbat is considered the most important of all Jewish holidays. It is the day of rest and weekly observance of God's completion of creation. Starting on Friday night an hour before sunset, it lasts for 25 hours until sunset on Saturday night.

Rosh HaShanah
During the fall with the days begin to shorten and the leaves begin to change, Jewish tradition encourages us to look inward as we prepare for the New Year ahead. The Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanah) is a festival marked by festive meals with foods symbolizing our hopes for the new year—such as apples dipped in honey for a sweet new year and pomegranates for a year of plenty—and a day spent in prayer or quiet meditation.

This seven–day festival celebrates the fall harvest and also commemorates the time when the Hebrews dwelt in the Sinai wilderness on their way to the Promised Land of Israel. The holiday is celebrated by building (and then dwelling in) ceremonial huts called Sukkot, waving of four different plant species (palm, myrtle, willow and citron), and many food-filled festive gatherings in the Sukkah.

Shemini Atzeret
This holiday literally means the “8th day of assembly” and it is a festival day after the week-long festival of Sukkot. It is marked by the annual prayer for rain recited in synagogue. In Israel and in liberal (Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal) communities outside of Israel it is combined with the holiday of Simchat Torah.

Simchat Torah
Simchat Torah marks the end and the beginning of the annual Torah reading cycle. Every week all over the world, the same Torah portion is read in Jewish communities. On Simchat Torah the cycle ends and begins again. This is accompanied by parading the Torah scrolls about and with much singing and dancing.

This beloved 8–day Jewish winter festival celebrates the miracle of a small cruse of oil when it burned for 8 days, instead of only one. It also celebrates the military victory of the Jewish Maccabees over the powerful Syrian Greek army in 167 BCE. The victory was followed by a rededication (Hanukkah) of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. It is from this act that the holiday gets its name.

Tu B’Shevat
This holiday celebrates trees. Observances include planting of trees, purchasing trees to be planted in Israel, and a mystical Tu B'Shevat ritual meal that includes different colored wine (from white to red) and different kinds of fruits and nuts.

The name of this holiday means “lots” so named for the lots that were drawn to determine a dark day in Jewish history. As luck would have it, those dark days never arrived, as the evil villian's plans were thwarted by the clever Jewish Queen Esther. The story is recounted in the Biblical Scroll of Esther. Celebrations include a public reading of the scroll, giving gifts to friends and to the neediest, dressing up in costume, and eating a special triangle-shaped pastry, the hamantashen.

This seven or eight day festival of freedom marks the Hebrew exodus from Egypt long ago. The story is told during a festive ritual meal called a “Seder”. During the festival, it is traditional to abstain from all foods containing leaven, that is foods made from grain that have not been prepared according to a strict Passover cooking procedure. Among the grain foods that are permitted is matzah, an unleavened bread that is baked before it has a chance to rise.

Lag B’Omer
This holiday marks the 33rd day of the 49-day “Omer” period between Passover and Shavuot. This 7 week period called “the Omer” is traditionally a quiet time on the Jewish calendar, but Lag B’Omer, which occurs on the 33rd day is an exception. Bonfires, outdoor parties and revelry rule the day which is also a popular Jewish wedding date.

Shavuot is the holiday celebration of the giving of the Torah to the Jewish people. The celebration of Shavuot is also the Festival of First Fruits and Grains-a fulfillment of the promise of spring. The name means “weeks”, so named for the 7-week period from Passover to Shavuot.

Tisha B’Av
An important fast day in the Jewish calendar is Tisha B’Av, the 9th day of the Hebrew month of Av. The day commemorates the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE and 70 CE.

Tu B’Av
Held six days after the fast day of Tisha B’Av comes a festival of love! A popular wedding date, the day is celebrated in the best way possible with wine, chocolate and roses!

I think that we can begin to be a little legalistic if we say that Christians can't entertain, or be entertained in one fashion or another. Can we go too far and have entertainment become an idol? Sure, but to say that entertainment has no place in the life of a Christian, is to also shun Christ for entertaining, or being entertained. Our lives can be completely devoted and sold out to Christ, and we can still have some fun in the midst of it all.

Just my thoughts


 2007/6/27 8:46Profile

Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA


Thank you very much for all the help your offering,I especially enjoyed much of Lovegrace's post.My wife was greatly convicted at Bob Coy's church of both God's love and her own sinfullness,Your post is very refreshing.Thank you so much for the fresh air
Intrcsser83:Can you explain what you mean by "John Piper is BAD" this is a very strong statement and I need to know what you meant,I can't just click on that link as I have both dial-up IP and a computer that won't allow me to get to that site,so can someone explain to me what he means by that statement,It's very unsettling to me to hear that and have no means of verifying the truth of it,and thank you for helping everyone I apprciate everyones input as you are my real family by the Lord's blood.
Love in Christ
Brian :-)


 2007/6/27 8:53Profile

Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia


Intrcsser83:Can you explain what you mean by "John Piper is BAD" this is a very strong statement and I need to know what you meant,I can't just click on that link as I have both dial-up IP and a computer that won't allow me to get to that site,so can someone explain to me what he means by that statement,It's very unsettling to me to hear that and have no means of verifying the truth of it,and thank you for helping everyone I apprciate everyones input as you are my real family by the Lord's blood.
Love in Christ

It's purely a joke that someone came up with wherein portions of Piper's teaching was remixed with a famous pop song by a rather infamous songwriter.

In an interview recorded during the 2007 Passion Conference, Piper responded by saying:
Interviewer: "You talk a lot - or scripture talks a lot about the Depravity of man... and I'm not sure if you've heard the recent combination of your preaching-"
Piper: (starts to crack up)
Interviewer: "-With Michael Jackson's music."
Piper: "I know what you're talking about. I don't know who came up with it (laughs)"
Interviewer: "'John Piper's 'Bad'...But is this a Piper-approved production?"
Piper: "I didn't approve it, but I don't disapprove of it because it's true: 'John Piper' is bad. I don't know who made it, but when I heard it I laughed!"

Benjamin Valentine

 2007/6/27 9:35Profile

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