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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : different views of the bible...please answer these with as much scripture for proof

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coolcap2007
Member



Joined: 2007/2/22
Posts: 29


 different views of the bible...please answer these with as much scripture for proof

please give scripture for proof
i talked with a christian who said that he believes that god will have mercy on a muslim who never had a single chance to hear of jesus, yet he did everything he could possibly do to be a good person. i told him that jesus says none of us are good, but he told me some words have been translated differently and tried telling me to take some literature class for the bible or something. he said he would be mad at god and say why did you put me with this family who is muslim when i could of known of jesus and believed.
next he said that the bible has been altered throught hundreds of years of whatever. many people use this against christians.
next he said that we can be have demons in us which many churches have said. they say this because jesus talks about the spirits leaving the house to come back with 7 more. why does jesus talk about spirits coming and stuff when in 1john it says that we cannot be physically harmed by satan if we belong to god.
next he said that why would a muslim who is serving god go to hell, when abraham and noah and all of those bible people were the same because they didnt have christ. he said that means that all the people in the past before christ should be in hell then if muslims will go to hell by my views.
what should i tell him about these issues. the most important one is about abraham and noah and all of those people before christ...i myself dont understand if they died and didnt have christ how did they go to heaven? jesus is the only way yet they didnt have jesus and died with sins? what makes them different than muslims? i mean just because they worshiped THE god doesnt mean anything if jesus hadnt been the savior...his blood couldnt clean thier sins and to say that thier blood would clean thier sins now doesnt make sense cus then jesus blood could clean many peoples sins that dont believe in jesus.

 2007/6/9 1:41Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: different views of the bible...please answer these with as much scripture for pro

i often meet Muslims,

here is what i use so often , i know they have all kind of arguments and "attacks" on the bible, but the same methods used in translation of the bible is used translating the Koran, there are also different versions of the Koran, where verses say different things in different versions, you can goggle this and find much info.

I always say that the Koran says the bible to be the word of God, and i ask them why do you don't believe it when the Koran says you should believe it? then they come with the story about the Jews changed the old testament and some other about the new have added verses and so on.

but then i always come to the point where i show them their sin, and if God is holy and righteous which they ALWAYS agree on, then i tell them God can not forgive you because then he wouldn't be righteous. and i ask them what he would feel about a earthly judge who let criminals go? that is a corrupt and bad judge. Then how much more must God punish sinners? he can not forgive.

and then bring them the good news about Jesus.

and the question about that they never heard about Jesus so he cant throw them in hell i tell them about this verse ant about their conscience,

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, [b]their conscience also bearing witness[/b], and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/9 5:20Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

The guy you talked to must believe in universalism. Not all will go to heaven, just look for verses that support that idea.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Muslim extremists won't go to Heaven because they're murderers, since they don't worship Jesus as the true God then they're idolaters.

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/6/9 9:13Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: different views of the bible...please answer these with as much scripture for pro

Cool wrote:

Quote:
i talked with a christian who said that he believes that




From your post you are describing a 'Christian' who is denying basic tenets of the Christian faith.

I have a question for him: what makes him believe he is a Christian? A Christian is one who follows Jesus, one who has accepted his authority for life and eternity. The guy falls short on all these points. He sounds like an agnostic who ought go read the book of John. But if he is an agnostic, even that would not convince him. Sounds to me like his mind is made up and that is to disprove the clear teachings of the Word of God because he has an argumentave spirit about him and likely is engaged in some secret sin that he wants to hang onto. Consider this quote given by Ravi Zacharias: "Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart we are not really battling intellectual ideas as much as fighting for the right of our sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?"
~Ravi Zacharias, Lessons from the Battle of Ideas, 11-21


My observation,

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/6/9 9:22Profile
heartablaze
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 65


 Re: different views of the bible...please answer these with as much scripture for pro

I suggest reading Hebrews 11 about the faithful before Christ.
God did not make people Muslims; they, their traditions and evil forces made them that. Romans 1 is also a good chapter about this.
The main thing is that we should be witnesses of Christ wherever we go; we should be, as in Paul's words he said he wanted to be: "all things to all people, that by all means I might save some." 1 Corinthians 9:22
People can't have faith thrust upon them.
Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Anway, some stuff to chew upon...


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Kelsey

 2007/6/9 12:56Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:


Please correct me if I have not got anything wrong doctrinally

Quote:
please give scripture for proof
i talked with a christian who said that he believes that god will have mercy on a muslim who never had a single chance to hear of jesus, yet he did everything he could possibly do to be a good person.
i told him that jesus says none of us are good, but he told me some words have been translated differently and tried telling me to take some literature class for the bible or something.
he said he would be mad at god and say why did you put me with this family who is muslim when i could of known of jesus and believed.
next he said that the bible has been altered throught hundreds of years of whatever. many people use this against christians.
next he said that we can be have demons in us which many churches have said. they say this because jesus talks about the spirits leaving the house to come back with 7 more. why does jesus talk about spirits coming and stuff when in 1john it says that we cannot be physically harmed by satan if we belong to god.
next he said that why would a muslim who is serving god go to hell, when abraham and noah and all of those bible people were the same because they didnt have christ.
He said that means that all the people in the past before christ should be in hell then if muslims will go to hell by my views.
what should i tell him about these issues. the most important one is about abraham and noah and all of those people before christ...i myself dont understand if they died and didnt have christ how did they go to heaven? jesus is the only way yet they didnt have jesus and died with sins? what makes them different than muslims?
i mean just because they worshiped THE god doesnt mean anything if jesus hadnt been the savior...his blood couldnt clean thier sins and to say that thier blood would clean thier sins now doesnt make sense cus then jesus blood could clean many peoples sins that dont believe in jesus.please give scripture for proof



This christian looks like he is speaking more for the Muslims than Christianity.

The absolute doctrine is Faith by Grace rather than Works

Righteousness is as Filthy Rags

Isa 64:6 - Show Context
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Ro 3:23 - Show Context
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ro 6:23 - Show Context
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

As God is holy, it takes just one sin to put you into eternal damination forever.

Jesus's Blood
Ro 5:9 - Show Context
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It is through Jesus blood and repentance
Repentance
Mt 3:2 - Show Context
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mt 4:17 - Show Context
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mr 1:15 - Show Context
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mr 6:12 - Show Context
And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Lu 13:3 - Show Context
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Lu 13:5 - Show Context
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Creation as a Witness to Gods Glory

Romans 1 - Study This Chapter


1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience F2 to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with F3 my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with F4 you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among F5 you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Quote:
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,



No one is of an excuse that they did not know god because creation glorifys god and noone will have an excuse on Judgement Day that they could not come to Jesus.

Jesus died before the Foundation of the World

Re 13:8 - Show Context
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is quote from Revelation, you have brought up the idea of Noah and Abraham. The reason I brought up about this there is a whole docrinal issue about the idea of what is god going to do about the people. Through faith they were saved such as people like Noah and Moses yet not knowing the cross.

Bible has been changed through out the centuries

Joh 5:39 - Show Context
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus is the centre of the scriptures, there may have been small changes in new versions but most of the bible has stayed pretty much the same.

What you have come across sounds exactly what a Muslim would believe there is a book by Harold Berry
[url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Islam-Harold-Berry/dp/0847408310/ref=sr_1_15/203-5132749-2754306?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181559829&sr=1-15]Muslims by Harold Berry[/url]

I would concentrate on whether this guy is saved.
There are so many small issues here, it would take quite a time to go through every one


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Dominic Shiells

 2007/6/11 7:46Profile





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