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 Re: Bush to meet Pope


There is something more I need to say for balance.

Some time ago, Neil wrote 'abortion is disgusting', and that simple statement did more to communicate something to my spirit than anything I had read here to that date. Amen.


But, opinions don't necessarily answer the heart and practicalities of real time issues for those who find themselves considering therapeutic abortion (that is, as opposed to a back-street abortion), and Christian platitudes on the matter don't necessarily speak what God would have a person hear and experience of His love.


ginnyrose,

I have to thank you for your response.

'Dorcas, you just don't get it, do you? Somehow, I feel real exasperated with your position on abortion...You will justify it depending on circumstances, like now.'

As I indicated in my post above, we are working from different scriptures on this, and I work from the ones about creation and spirit.


We [i]don't[/i] see eye to eye, but I was genuinely floored when you said

Quote:
[size=x-small]Do you not know the female has greater powers to resist the sexaul act then a male?[/size]

As if this is either true or the answer for the female in the situation?

It has taken me days to get over my incredulity at this statement / question and begin to formulate a response.

Mainly, I am left with a series of questions, because this is the only way to avoid shooting you down in haste. :-? Even my questions may seem hasty, but I really do hope you will think about them...


Is what you retorically asked me, what might be considered [i]received wisdom[/i] in your part of the world?

Can you see that the male is usually bigger and stronger, and in putting the responsibility for resisting on to the weaker, smaller party, you are effectively taking that responsibility from the male where it [i][b]should rest[/b][/i], thus [u]re-enforcing[/u] [b]society's denial[/b] about sexual sin in general, and sexual abuse in particular?

Might this be a reason for society's lack patience towards adult [i]women[/i] who were abused in childhood? (The patience needed for them is monumental. I don't think it comes natually to [i]anyone[/i].)

So, how do you deal with the adult males who were abused in childhood? What excuse do you give the perpetrators of offences against [i]them[/i]?


Returning, now, to fornication between consenting adults (or at least two sexually mature parties) - that is, [i]not[/i] girls in their early teens - is your assumption that the woman should take control of the situation, not also a re-endorsement of what happened at the Fall, when Adam rebelled against God's word, and later tried to put the blame on Eve?

Are you not, here, saying Eve [i]should[/i] take the blame? Are you inadvertently repeating her error? God was fully aware. [u]She [i]cannot[/i][/u].

Further, Jesus demonstrated that continence is well within the reach of an average, unmolested male. This is the standard of male human behaviour which Christians seek [i]from men[/i].

In other words, male continence is exactly where the responsibility lies and lies only. Joseph fled at the age of eighteen. Amen. Good man.


So, I think that any putting of the general responsibility on the woman, is an interference with God's order, ([i]totally[/i]).

The female is [i]supposed[/i] to respond to the male. [i]That's why[/i] the male is configured the way he is, [u]and given[/u] [b]the leadership[/b].


Of course I know a female can say 'no'. But please explain why you are letting off all the males who should have said 'no' [i][u]to themselves[/i][/u]?


 2007/6/19 11:56









 Re:

Dorcas, I believe life begins at conception. There are verses about God knowing the Psalmist while in his mothers womb, God knitting us together in our mothers womb, John the Baptist leaping in his mothers womb when Mary came to her, John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit in his mothers womb... etc etc.

YOU can not tell me for sure when you believe life begins, but you apparently do not believe it happens at conception.

We differ on that.

However, since you can not prove that it doesnt begin at conception, I say we need to line up on the conservative side. If I'm wrong, so what? If you're wrong... killing is taking place. Killing of innocent life. This is what we call [b]murder[/b].

You do not know for sure if you're right or wrong.

Better safe than sorry.

Krispy

 2007/6/19 13:10









 Re: Bush to meet Pope


Hi Krispy,

Your words stuck to me, and I cried.

BUT, what I want to know from you - apart from your resistance to therapeutic abortion to avoid the consequences of fornication - is whether you are willing to concede medical reason for therapeutic abortion or not?

This is not a trick question. I haven't looked for information on medically justifyable terminations of pregnacy on the web, as I'm sure you are able to do that for yourself.

Also, I'm sure you are not denying health care to pregnant women.

But, I do want to know how you advise women who are pregnant, regarding the tests which are available to detect abnormalities?

And, what you advise the husbands of those who find the only hope of their wife's life being saved, is to end the baby's?

(Sometimes the baby's would end anyway, but not necessarily before the mother's.)

I realise these seem not to be common in our superbly furnished and staffed hospitals, but in countries where there is an average maternal death rate of 15%, these questions [u]must[/u] - at least - figure.



 2007/6/20 11:20
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
There is never any justification for abortion. Dont like it? Too bad. God said it, not me. Take it up with Him.



Slight deviation from the topic at hand, but I think this is a little nieve, Krispy. While I must say that I lean toward being "anti-abortion", I am reminded of the story told by Keith Green, of when Melody fell pregnant, and the child was growing in one of her tubes. To allow the pregnancy to go to term, would mean certain death for the baby, and possibly taking out the mother also.

Beside this, I see no place that God specifically spoke anything about abortion, apart from general comments about murder. There is "never a valid excuse" for putting words into God's mouth, and I am reminded of Eve's insertion into God's commandment, when telling it to the serpent, "...neither shall ye touch it.." Could it be possible that the fact the she survived "touching it" caused her to believe that she'd survive eating it? I realise that this is somatic, and I agree that clumsy morality is no excuse to murder, whether by the proponent or the victim, but we must be careful when referring to what God did or didn't say.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/6/20 13:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Slight deviation from the topic at hand, but I think this is a little nieve, Krispy. While I must say that I lean toward being "anti-abortion", I am reminded of the story told by Keith Green, of when Melody fell pregnant, and the child was growing in one of her tubes. To allow the pregnancy to go to term, would mean certain death for the baby, and possibly taking out the mother also.



That is not the same thing.

Quote:
Beside this, I see no place that God specifically spoke anything about abortion, apart from general comments about murder.



Well... I say that's quite enough.

Fact is not even 1% of abortions in this country are for medical reasons.... they are for convenience. They are a result of sinful behavior.

Trying to pick at a gnat and ignoring the rhino in your living room is hardly worth the time.

Krispy

 2007/6/20 15:44









 Re: Bush to meet Pope


Far from being a deviation, this is exactly the kind of situation I feel Christian anti-abortionists need to understand.

Quote:
To allow the pregnancy to go to term, would mean certain death for the baby, and possibly taking out the mother also.

In fact, the tube usually ruptures at between 8 and 13 weeks, if (nowadays) a very early scan (possibly for some other medical reason) has not detected it. The bleeding leads to acute unilateral abdominal pain which may be referred as far as one of the shoulders. This is such a classic scenario, that any doctor who misdiagnoses it should get a severe reprimand. If surgery is not prompt enough, the mother will indeed die. And they still do.

 2007/6/20 15:48









 Re: Buzh to meet Pope


Krispy said

Quote:
That is not the same thing.

But it would be ideal not to [i]wait[/i] [u]until[/u] the tube ruptures - EDIT - thus removing a live fetal sac.

So, are you saying that the 'killing' of 'unborn babies' (as you insist it is) for [i]medical reasons[/i], is ok?

Please answer my other questions.

I am not impressed with your percentage argument, precisely because you have made [i]such[/i] an issue out of the non-medical majority.

Please, where is the line beween the abortions [i]you[/i] can justify and those you do not?

 2007/6/20 15:56









 Re:

I feel myself getting ever frustrated by this discussion... therefore, I will opt out until such time as I am capable of continuing on without getting a head ache over all the semantics and "what if's".

There was a discussion about something else some time ago... I believe the dicussion was about adultry and divorce... and it was amazing all of the perverse scenarios that believers on this very forum could come up with simply by adding the two words "what if..." to the beginning of the scenario. It was as if it were a contest to see how far into the gutter people could take their imaginations and come up with a "what if..." scenario.

Thats what is happening here. "What if this...", "what if that..."...

How about 99% of abortion in America, Canada & Europe is for people who do not wish to live with the results of their sin.

But you want to focus on the less than 1%. I think it's silly to do that.

Krispy

 2007/6/20 17:13









 Re:Pass the Goody powders.

I came on this thread because of the TITLE, thinking I had something to post about the Vatican and Israel.

With all the due respects to The Most High GOD, my reaction to all that I've read here is, OMG, and quite loudly in my Spirit at that.

I had a tubal pregnancy but what on earth has that to do with using abortion "as a birth control method" ???

Even Melody and Keith Green did and do major tracts to hand out Against Abortion.

The "saline solution" BURNS THE BABY TO DEATH or near death.

The normal method of suction, tears them up, limbs and pieces at a time.

Need I bring up the late term methods or stabbing a hole in the back of the head and suctioning their brains out in the birth canal ?

When abortion was first sanctioned back before Roe vs Waye, it was being legally performed in N.Y. first.
At "that time", a mother could not be more than 8 weeks pregnant.

At "that time" the pro-life people were screaming about "where" this would lead in the "inevitable slippery slope" .......... well, those prognosticators were right!

The slippery slope has slid our (Biblical) ideas of "life" right into the very pits of hell itself.

Just the Saline Solution method alone, reminds of those Baal-ites, that gave their children to be burned and Jesus said, as it was in the day of Noah and Sodom, so shall it be in the days before His return --- which I know we are in.
Obviously.

I picked the wrong thread to place anything about the Vatican on .... that's an understatement.

GOD help us all.

 2007/6/20 17:51
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
There was a discussion about something else some time ago... I believe the dicussion was about adultry and divorce... and it was amazing all of the perverse scenarios that believers on this very forum could come up with simply by adding the two words "what if..." to the beginning of the scenario.



I agree. I think people who are bent on concocting such "what if" scenarios are actually seeking to justify an errant belief which they have already espoused in their mind. We've seen it recently on two different threads in this forum - and there is one going on right now.

The beautiful thing about the Word of God I find is that there are no "what if's" for those who follow God with a clean conscience and seek His righteousness in all avenues. The Holy Ghost speaks clearly, and what He speaks is further corroborated by the testimony and lives of the saints who have gone on before. There's no new radical bendings, no dire extrapolating, no hypothetical allowances. No confusion. Things become confusing only when man begins to pry his own rogue convictions into the equation.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/20 17:56Profile





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