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 Re: Bush to meet Pope


awakenwithin said

Quote:
I think I am not sure what I feel about this?

Exactly.

It was news to me a couple of years ago, thanks to GrannieAnnie, that Vatican City has a seat on the UN. Of course it does!

So, it is in the corridors of the United Nations, these arrangements are tentatively explored, before they become formal.

 2007/6/12 5:32









 Re:

The Pope is a political figure as well as religious... and lets face it, he has tremendous influence on world affairs. Everyone here knows I miss no opportunity to point out the evil that is the RCC... but I am also honest enough to say that Popes like John Paul II did a lot of good from a humanitarian point of view.

There was a tremendous alliance between Ronald Reagan (perhaps our greatest president since Lincoln)... and Reagan used that alliance to topple the former Soviet Union without firing a shot. Poland was a key piece to the puzzle in that Cold War, and John Paul II had a vested interest in it, since he was from Poland.

Please understand me, I believe with all my heart that the Roman Catholic Church is the whore spoken of in Revelation 17. I dont condone RCC doctrine, practices, etc. It is doctrines of demons. And the RCC has the blood of the martyrs on it's hands... and we're not even in the Tribulation yet.

While I wish our presidents were all born again Christians, and would reject meeting with the Pope... the fact is, it's all politics. It's not religious at all. There is nothing religious about Bush meeting the Pope.

Now, when Billy Graham comes calling, and sits and prays with the president... and doesnt get into policies except to encourage them to do something about abortion... I think thats great. Thats what a believer with those kind of connections ought to be doing.

But the Pope doesnt sit and pray with the president... he has an agenda.

Krispy

 2007/6/12 8:58









 Re: Bush to meet Pope

Krispy said

Quote:
but I am also honest enough to say that Popes like John Paul II did a lot of good from a humanitarian point of view.

There was a tremendous alliance between Ronald Reagan (perhaps our greatest president since Lincoln)...

Hey Krispy,

I heard something on the radio today (BBC radio 4, In Our Time with Melvin Bragg), which you may not know - that Reagan used to consult an astrologer while he was President... I don't doubt God appoints authorities and is over all astrologers also.

On abortion, I'll be impressed with the Christian stance when there is an outcry that so many unwed mothers-to-be fall pregnant. I find it disgraceful these women bear the brunt of Christian society's distaste for abortion, without Christian society having much more to say about the male contribution to fornication.

 2007/6/14 8:21









 Re:

Quote:
I heard something on the radio today (BBC radio 4, In Our Time with Melvin Bragg), which you may not know - that Reagan used to consult an astrologer while he was President... I don't doubt God appoints authorities and is over all astrologers also.



I had heard that it was actually his wife, Nancy, that consulted astrologers. I dont know if thats true or not, and from the way the media spins stories who knows what the truth was.

I dont know if Reagan was a born again Christian. His personal writings do indicate that he had a real sense of who God was, and it was definately from a conservative Biblical point of view.

All any of us know is what the media told us... and thats not the most reliable source of information, especially when they are writing about a man that they absolutely hated at the time.

As for what Reagan did for our country... well, let's just say that we need another Ronald Reagan right now.

I joined the Marines during Reagan's second term, and he will always be my commander-in-chief (not in a spiritual sense, obviously)

Clinton was president when I got out. I dont hold him in the same regard (not even close).

Quote:
On abortion, I'll be impressed with the Christian stance when there is an outcry that so many unwed mothers-to-be fall pregnant. I find it disgraceful these women bear the brunt of Christian society's distaste for abortion, without Christian society having much more to say about the male contribution to fornication.



Well... obviously you havent spent much time reading my posts. :-)

Both parties are equally responsible before God for the sins of fornication and murder of the unborn child.

The way the laws are set up in this country, however, please keep in mind that the father (who usually is just a sperm donor), has no say whatsoever in the decision to abort. So ultimately the girl does in fact bear a lot of the responsibility for the abortion.

Krispy

 2007/6/14 9:59
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

Dorcas wrote:

Quote:
I'll be impressed with the Christian stance when there is an outcry that so many unwed mothers-to-be fall pregnant. I find it disgraceful these women bear the brunt of Christian society's distaste for abortion, without Christian society having much more to say about the male contribution to fornication.



Dorcas, you just don't get it, do you? Somehow, I feel real exasperated with your position on abortion...You will justify it depending on circumstances, like now.

Do you not know the female has greater powers to resist the sexaul act then a male? It is the real young who may not have a clue as to what can happen if she hooks up with a fellow. Lady, I have had 12 YO pg clients who barely knew why they were pg; not so with older females. The probability of these girls carrying the child to term rests with the parent of the girl, in most cases, often forcing her to AB against her wishes.

And not all females who abort are single: many are married who for whatever reason think they do not want a baby. These are the tough (EDIT) cases for the counselors.

On this side of the pond there are many who will tell the boys that chasity is for them, too.

Another thing, if a female conceives and the father leaves the mother and child set, the state will work to find the father and force him to pay child support. My DH had pitched many a request from the Dept. of Human Services (I think) for info about a certain absentee father (because he did not know them).

Dorcas, the bottom line is that fornication is sin and that it is equally sinful for both males and females and to kill the innocent child because of the sin of some other people is not Biblical justice. To suggest that all have to be equally fair in order to support a moral position of righteousness is relevance to an extreme. Right is right regardless how the 'church' interpretes it. God is going to call all men/women to accountablity someday. And to be in a position where you failed to speak out because of perceived inconsistences is missing the mark, IMHO.

Consider: Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. If you say, "See, we did not know this," Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work? Pro. 24:11-12. NASB

I have had many AB minded clients tell me AB is murder -their words, not mine, and they will admit it is sin but plan to go ahead with it and then after the fact, ask God to fogive them! Lady, people are not as innocent as you would like to believe.

ginnyorse



_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/6/14 13:59Profile









 Re:

There is never a valid excuse to take the life of an unborn child. With todays medical advancements abortion "to save the life of the mother" almost never happens. And a the cnumber of women getting pregnant from a rape are so insignificant that it doesnt even register... and many of those "rape pregnancies" are young girls lying to mommy and daddy after they were not able to keep from fornicating.

And even if they were raped, committing murder does not fix the problem. I listened to a speech by a young woman who's mother got pregnant for her as a result of being raped. The doctor's "botched" the abortion, and the young woman was born... and today she's a speaker who goes across the country speaking against abortion.... as an abortion survivor. Is this young woman any less a human than someone who was conceived in a marriage bed?

99.99% of abortions are due to sin. Period. It's not even open for discussion. The numbers proove what I am saying is true.

There is never any justification for abortion. Dont like it? Too bad. God said it, not me. Take it up with Him.

Krispy

 2007/6/14 16:16
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

Krispy,

I could not have said it any better.Thanks! Krispy.


One time I had a client who was pg because of rape and she was a trouper. She told me it is wrong to kill a child because of someone else's sin. And brother, I gave her whatever she needed. She was so grateful. There are Christians out there happy to help these victims, if they only make themselves known.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/6/15 0:06Profile
FreebyWord
Member



Joined: 2007/5/26
Posts: 97


 Re: Bush and the Pope



I was spiritually sickened to see Bush, a proclaimed Christian, bow at the feet of the pope.

 2007/6/18 15:36Profile









 Re:

Uhmmm... none of us are in a position to judge another person's salvation. I will say this, however: It is impossible to be an outspoken, bold and uncompromising believer and be in politics. You could never be in politics and win an election because you will be too unpopular with the worldly, godless voters.

Bush may be a Christian, and I hope he is... but he has to "play politics" at every turn. He cant simply slight the pope because he doesnt agree with his doctrine.

Did Bush really bow at the feet of the pope? I didnt bother to see it. I would never bow before anyone. You'll have to put a bullet thru my head before I bow to another human being... and at that point I'll be gone. It'll just be a corpse on the ground that they see.

Krispy

 2007/6/18 17:10









 Re: Bush to meet Pope


Hi Krispy and ginnyrose,

Krispy, I don't think you know why I countenance abortion, but there are many reasons.

Those who believe a fertilised ovum has a soul, take it that God is permitted to kill those He doesn't want to come to full maturity, and that doesn't give Man permission to take His example into their own hands. However, for the Calvinists, this is not an inconsistency in the natural terms you described, ginnyrose, as it cannot matter what a person has done by way of sin if they are going to be saved because they are going to be saved. This doesn't rule out the role of those who counsel against abortion, but, it relieves them of the ultimate responsibility when God allows an abortion to proceed anyway.

But, I put it to you both that the anti-abortion lobby have made the assumption that murder is involved. Anyone can find scripture against murder. But these are not the scriptures I would use to justify not being anti-abortion.

I can't justify your statistics, Krispy, but part of my consideration includes that whatever God has ordained for humans, is applicable across humanity; not just the Western world.

So, your unwillingness to terminate pregnancies, in many other conditions mught cost the lives of many more people - both women and children in the same family. Wives and mothers. If it was your wife and children, would you - believing as you do - be ok with this, seeing God's higher will in the situation for you personally?

I see therapeutic abortion in completely other terms than I've seen put forward on SI [i]ever[/i]. I've not heard you or ginnyrose answer how you could justify letting a woman [i]and[/i] the baby die, rather than permit a therapeutic abortion. Or, if only one could be saved, why you would choose the baby over the mother?

These are real questions which [i]formed[/i] both legal and medical opinion - in the light of scripture - over centuries (not just the last four decades).

I use scripture to understand from [i]new[/i] birth, the parallels drawn by Paul and the Old Testament which apply to natural birth. Therefore, I don't have the [i]same[/i] problem with the loss of a pregnancy as it seems to cause Christians who have not looked at the issues this way. But, don't let me leave you with the impression that I think therapeutic abortion is a risk-free, advisable procedure, from which there will be no aftermath.

On the contrary, I understand it is a deeply disturbing issue to have to face at all. BUT, that doesn't make it the sin you think it is, nor would it mean I'd be [i]for[/i] therapeutic abortion in every case where it is sought.


Part of what I think about [i]all[/i] this, is that the whole of creation is fallen. Getting all worked up about abortion is possibly a waste of Christian energy, when the practical answers are at a different level of intervention.

Basically, I don't believe abortion on its own keeps people out of God's family, just as [i]not[/i] having an abortion when it would have been one possible solution to an unwanted pregnancy - unwanted for many good reasons - is not going to save [i]that[/i] person.

 2007/6/18 19:23





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