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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
it is a good idea to start seeing who will come out and stand against the ones who cling to the 4 major pillars of apostate Christianity:

Wow... thats the first time I've ever heard of the "4 pillars of Apostate Churches" being those things! Usually apostacy is seen as just the opposite.

So... you believe someone can be saved and lose their salvation.

I dont believe in tithing, but dont see it as an apostacy.

Pre-trib is up for debate, always has been. Not something I would consider apostacy.

And you believe in replacement theology.

So basically you're saying that anyone who doesn’t agree with [b]YOU[/b] is apostate.

I think you're in for a surprise when you get to heaven and all those Independent Fundamental Baptists are in line in front of you.


Hi Eldalon

I think many, or even most of those on SI, including many of those whose sermons are in the archives, would be "apostate" on one or more of these 4!

Hmmm, let’s see:

1. Unconditional eternal security (Once saved always saved): Partly disagree, but wouldn’t call it an “apostate” position by any means! Some of my best friends are Calvinists :-D

2. Tithing: Agree with Krispy. I don’t believe that tithing is binding on the Church, but find it very strange to have something so comparatively minor called “a pillar of apostate Christianity”

3. The pre-tribulation rapture of the church: I tend towards the post-trib. position, but agree that it’s always been controversial. So why should I rob myself of fellowship with these pre-trib “apostates”?

4. Israel still being God's chosen people( having a separate covenant with The Father outside of the acceptance of the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ): Strongly disagree with you. See my thread on “Time and Eternity” etc.

While the world, as it is now, endures, God still has a purpose for and a promise to physical Israel [i]as well as[/i] "spiritual Israel", the Church. Though it doesn't mean we'll meet them in heaven if they continue to reject their Messiah.

So I’m apostate too… Ah well, I’ve been called worse. ;-)


 2007/6/8 14:56

Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana


Please don't hijack this thread. BTW is there a record for how many successive locked threads in a row?

Thanks for all who've contributed! I'm not trying to justify speaking against rulers. Just trying to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Neil Long

 2007/6/8 16:01Profile

 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?


I think it may be advantageous for you to consider whether Jesus sent "leaders" out into the world, or "servants".

Also, consider whether or not we Christians are "Priests and Priestesses" in the "Order of Melchizadek" who serve the Living God day and night... or if we need "more holy" human intercessors to speak to Him on our behalf.

I don't think the kingdom of God is a carnal "prayer army" pyramid of authority - with generals, commanders, privates, and such.

I think the Kingdom has been arranged so that penitent hookers and thieves are more highly prized, honoured, and rewarded than self-righteous "religionists".

During one of his sermons, Paul Washer asked:

"What is more like God: an Archangel or the bacteria floating around your toilet bowl?"

Someone in the audience answered, "The angel."

"No", he said, "neither the angel nor the bacteria are anything like God. God's not quantitatively bigger or better or higher than you or me or an angel or a bacteria... He's qualitatively DIFFERENT!"

NLONG, when's the last time one of your Christian "leaders" washed your feet as Jesus commanded in John 13?

Jesus never commanded us to be leaders - He commanded us to be servants.

And don't get me started on that Orwellian Churchian Doublespeak like "Servant Leaders" or "Worship Leaders". That's like saying "Clean Dirties" or "Bright Darkness"...

But, back to the topic... "YES"... research, pray exhort, correct, and rebuke.

 2007/6/8 18:03

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Like to hear how we balance not speaking ill of our leaders and reproof.

Let me say first that I am not directing this statement at you.
There is a spirit in the world today and sad to say the church as well that seems to hold no respect for those in positions of leadership or authority. This lack of respect spans the whole gamut from children through elderly adults. We see it in toddlers and see parents actually teaching their children disrespect by laughing at them when they act disrespectful. We have become a very irreverent society and though we may justify our motives for being such they are not biblical.

Now there are leaders in the church and there are leaders in the world, there are also brothers and sisters in the Lord so when you talk of reproof you need to specify which you are talking about.
Paul says this about a leader in the church:
Acts 23:5
Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. Exodus 22:28

When you speak of reproof are you in a position that gives you authority to rebuke.
1 Tim. 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Jesus says it like this:
Matthew 23:1-3
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You see the problem today is so many feel they have this authority to reprove and if they disagree with a person in authority they speak against them and this is what we are warned against doing.

Now secular leaders are by their position of authority ordained of God and we are warned not to speak evil of them.
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Now here we must ask the question unless these powers are asking us to do something that is against the Word of God, what gives us the authority to not be in subjection or to reprove them because we may disagree with their policy or standard of morals, remember the higher powers that the word speaks of were not for the most part followers of the Lord. We must be careful and not be self willed in our haste to reprove.

2 Peter 2:10-11
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

I would suggest we pray for those in authority and if we are not in a position to reprove then we leave it to those who are, if you are in the position then I would approach it as one who will receive greater condemnation.
James 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

In His Love

 2007/6/8 23:59Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi everyone.

Would like to pick up briefly on something pastorfrin shared...

"We must be careful and not be self willed in our haste to reprove."

Thinking of John the Baptist, as he was mentioned before, this would seem to apply; he spoke with and of the authority of God.

And taking that, I think of what the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660033]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/color][/b]


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/6/9 16:06Profile

Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re: rebuke leaders?

Ephesians 5:3-20: "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, F13 that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light." 15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. "

As a christian, I am to "expose the unfruitful works of darkness" and "walk as a child of light" the fruit of the Spirit thereof being "goodness, righteousness, and truth." I'll admit my comments were fairly fleshly remarks. For that I've appologized. However, I don't believe I was speaking evil, but exposing truth. Exactly what John the Baptist did. There's nothing in this Ephesians passage that says you can expose darkness, except if its your rulers.

Perhaps we differ so much because you may have a broader or narrower definition of evil speaking. The same exists for many biblical concepts. How about love? God says in Hebrews that everyone he loves he chastens and scourges. Now that's God's heart, not man's. Perhaps to me a scourging is not loving. It's what our Lord suffered for me. But, to God it's counted as essential to being His son.

Hebrews 12:6-8 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

I agree that we should not speak evil. Titus 3:2 tells us to "speak evil of no man." This is regardless of rulers.
EDIT: By today's standards maybe even Jesus was an evil speaker in his "get thee behind me Satan" rebuke to Peter.

Please expound on this idea of authority to reproove. I'm not sure I've encountered this idea. Though, I guess I don't see in scripture the whole priest-layman system that we have today. I think it's a fraud. Yes, we are to have elders and such, but they are to be "ruling" servants not tyrants (like we have so much today). Peter says we are all kings and priests.

Further, I have a scriptural command if my brother sins against me, I am to rebuke him, if he repents, I am to forgive. That says nothing of station.

If I am a Christian, then I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. If I have that, then what else do I need in the way of authority?

Also, what made John the Baptist great? By that I mean any greater than any of us. He wasn't superman. Yet, we have a tendency to exalt biblical figures as untouchables. Did they accomplish exceptional things? Yes, but were they ordinary men? Yes. What connects these two truths? Ordinary men have the power to do extraordinary by faith in an extraordinary, living, Almighty God.

Sorry about paraphrased scripture, I don't have time to look them up, but I think you can understand.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed here. It's challenged me and my walk with the Lord!


Neil Long

 2007/6/11 11:16Profile

 Re: rebuking anyone.

NLONG, you've hit the hardest question in the Book here.

We don't quite seem to be able to keep the balance in our minds or able to define the balance between meekness/humility and pride/assumption. We mostly fail at defining these things. We only see them as outward behaviors, rather than as the Bible portrays the people mentioned in the Bible.

That seems to me to be people's largest fear when it comes to any correction in or from The Church. I appreciate that, because I've always been timid by nature and fearful of my own words. I've gone off line 3 times since having a computer for several reasons. I wanted God to work some balance for myself in this area. I needed Him to 'hone' me, so to speak.
Whether any of us will ever be perfectly perfect while in the flesh, is up for debate also, but I think, with much prayer and being open to examination from the Lord, The Word and others, we come to a constant state of "trying our words".

Peter was an Apostle - as we all know and know all about his life and God's hand on him, from the beginning ... and Paul, compared to Peter, could have been looked down upon by Peter, if Peter's spirit wasn't right ... yet, we read here what happened between them ... Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

None of us are Pauls or John the Baptists or Jesus, but these things are written for our instruction.
The humility and meekness has to be solidly formed within the heart ... which means, that 'words' need not always 'sound meek' but the spirit of the person, or inward nature of that person may be more meek than those who always 'try' to sound meek.

True humility is similar to meekness, in that, it is Biblically seldom possessed by those who have not suffered. Look at Moses, etc.. He was the meekest man, but how did he approach Pharoah in the end. Or looking at the prophets.
The Bible stories are endless to prove your point, but the only caution remains 'within' us.
The Lord would just have us to pray and wait on Him, I believe, before we rebuke 'anyone'.
We should wait and see if maybe God Himself would not change a person. Only He can tell you when and show you when you're speaking or acting in your own 'intellect' instead of His Holy Spirit.

If we only used Jesus as our example, we'd do better.
Some see Him as a quiet, sort of passive Man, forgetting much of what is written of what He did and said at the Temple and to the leaders of it.
We can say, "but we're not Jesus." ... but the Word says, to be like Him ... not trusting in ourselves - but operating in the Spirit, as He did while here. He said, "my words and acts are not my own, but My Father in Heaven gives them to me" ... did He not hear The Father when turning tables over and making that whip or when speaking to the "white-washed-sepulchers-brood-of-vipers, etc, etc," ?

If you truly feel the words are "from The Father", then try it ... if they're not ... He's faithful to chasten.

God help us all. amen

 2007/6/11 16:58

Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana


GRANNIEANNIE -- Yes, Peter and Paul another great example.

I've been thinking alot about this in the last couple days. It seems today people are calling for accountability, accountability and more accountability. However, when they are held accountable (or when others see us hold them accountable) often what we get in return in an angry fleshly response--nothing like meekness. I'm not sure where it comes from. I've been rebuked several times with similar results. However, when my anger quickly resolved I found that it was for my greatest benefit. I found repentance and a closer walk with Our Lord. Perhaps its a product of our fiercly independent culture mixed with a large dose of pride.

Often we look at reproof and say that person is being judgmental. However, I think it is with great error we do this (if it is done in a spirit of love). For what is the goal of reproof? To bring a person who is filled with sin into a right relationship with God, to walk as Jesus walked and perhaps eternal judgment (James 5:20).

Neil Long

 2007/6/13 16:01Profile

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Any man that I allowed to lead me would be positionally between me and The Head of the Body. We of the Body need rebuke and praise and edifying from each part of The Body Of Christ and the orderly working inside the Body through members guided by the Holy Spirit in each of us is accepted. But always seat the ones who still have a look of pride and a worldly title to back it up in a lower seat.


 2007/6/14 7:36Profile

Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 299

 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

If I may add anything to what has been said, I would say that in the case of a leader that has done somthing wrong, like preaching somthing that clearly contradicts the word of God, then by the authority of God and of his word you may rebuke him.
But I have learned that whenever a person is rebukeing sombody else, the rebuker should do it with Love and compassion;and be willing to show that other person with passience what he/she has done wrong. Just to add my view on the topic.


 2007/6/14 19:48Profile

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