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HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 All Israel Will Be Saved?

The other thread about Israel brought this question to mind, will all of Israel be saved?

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Will what this verse says literally happen?

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/6/2 17:09Profile









 Re: All Israel Will Be Saved?

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
The other thread about Israel brought this question to mind, will all of Israel be saved?

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Will what this verse says literally happen?

Jordan

Depends what the Lord means, in this passage, by Israel!

Which should start the whole discussion all over again. ;-)

There is a sense in Scripture that the whole of the people of God [i]have[/i] to come together in completeness in the end. It doesn't seem likely that this will include every single Jew alive at the time - unless they are the only ones who God permits to survive an even greater holocaust than they have yet endured (there is that verse in Zechariah 13, "I wil bring the thir part through the fire...".

Personally I have tended to think that "All Israel will be saved" refers to "spiritual Israel", but looking again at the passage in Zechariah, mentioned above, makes me wonder...



But I don't think we can be too dogmatic about this particular point. Only God knows what God will do.

[i][color=000066]8 In the whole land, says the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive. 9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call on my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Chapter 14
1 Behold, a day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. 5 And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with him.[/color][/i]


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/2 17:30
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Will what this verse says literally happen?



This question is similar to questions that surround the coming of the Lord. There are two ways to answer the question, I think. One is a 'future' YES and one is a present day 'YES'. In like manor the Lord is coming for His Saints with ten thousands of His Saints, etc. This is a future event. But the Lord comes for Saints every hour of every day. For all that have died in Christ- the day of their death He 'came for them'.

Putting off the salvation of Jews to the future is for me a most terrible concept. I may not be a missionary to the Jews, but as each of us do in life, we encounter Jews just as we do non-Jews. Jews are both ethnic and religious. Some will argue this point- but this has always been the case. Paul was a 'Hebrew among Hebrews' and technically and arguable had a more pure ancestry than our Lord; as Ruth was in our Lord's bloodline. She was a Moabite (See Matthew 1:5). There has been some assimilation. But they have guarded their culture and heritage.

If any Jew is to be saved it will be through [i]the Door[/i] as coming in any other way is to be a thief and a robber. You will notice that some preaching in Acts is directed at folks as sinners. Many had no real trouble believing in and receiving Jesus Christ. They just did not want to turn away from their sins. For the Jews, in many ways, it was the opposite. The preaching was to the end that they might believe on Jesus Christ. This would mean to cease salvation by the works of the law and to receive the Holy Spirit by faith.

The trouble is that many are locked up in Rabbinic Judaism. This is the religion of the Pharisees twice over. When Ezra began to read the Law and attempt to bring the people under the Law a trend was started among the Jews that few realize. Some historians date his death as essentially the end of the prophets in Israel until John Baptist. But if you read Ezra several things happened in response to simply trying to 'line up' with the Law- whereas we would expect that the people would have sought out a prophetic word from God for direction. Instead, they went to the book and devised their own plans and oaths.

Ezra is a hero among heroes to the Rabbinic Jews. They attribute more things to him than we can list in a short post. He is praised for his stand against the newly formed Sadducees and is said to have written the entire Old Testament out from memory. This likely adds weight to their teaching that the Moral Law was passed down orally and was later written down. To this day many Rabbinic Jews consider STUDY of the scriptures as the highest form of worship. It all seems very noble? Right? Not so fast. They came to the place where they would not receive any prophetic revelation from God. Their attitude became one in which they, the Rabbi's, reserved the right to interpret everything from dreams to visions. They could over-rule a Prophet. As far as they were concerned- the authority was [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1959]NOT IN HEAVEN[/url], it was their alone as received from Moses. And being able to prove a false doctrine from scripture exegetically, they userped God's authority and right to interpret His own Word.

So the Rabbi's are in authority and they look to the Talmudic writings for answers. In their belief, God already gave the Torah to the Jewish people on Mount Sinai and they no longer pay attention to a heavenly voices that attempted to intervene in matters of [i]Halakhah[/i] (application of the word to peoples lives). God already wrote in the Torah at Mount Sinai (Exodus 23:2), so for their interpretation- “After the majority to incline.” From this verse they propose that Halakhic disputes must be resolved by majority vote of the Rabbis. God could not contradict His own decision to allow Torah questions to be decided by free debate and majority vote. This is why it is so difficult to reach a Jew. They look almost completely to the Rabbi as THE authority.

The only real hope, I believe, for a Jew to come to know Christ is for them to know the true presence of God as He is manifest among believing Christians or sovereignly (as with Paul) experiencing God- manifest (A theophanic manifestation). Some are confused and want to believe but the have been taught against Christ since they were Children. They see the Cross as a sword dipped in hundreds of years of Jewish blood. On and on and on. This is because of so much antisemitism over the years- especially some of the early church fathers.

This is not even a decent introduction to an introduction to the issues involved. But hopefully it sheds some light to get things started. Jews have to be saved just like everyone else. To reach them almost requires that we examine the host of issues involved to even get our head around where they are coming from. They so easily write Christians off. We have to study if we are serious about reaching them...


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/6/2 20:10Profile









 Re: Hoy Vey !

Not mocking the thread or thread question at all, believe me ven I tell ya.

But after reading daniel-'s thread and posting on it too ... I'm happy to see Jeannette bring up Zechariah again on here.

I posted to read chpt 14 on that other thread and posted these verses there too ... but I would have liked to have said ... read Zech chpt.s 12 through 14.

Why must we spiritualize so much ?

The verses that LittleGift gave above from Zech should be enough in themselves .... but maybe if all three of those chpt.s are read right through it would be plainer .... if God is just plain-out taken at His own Word. If He says He's going to save them - I believe He will ... at the appointed time mentioned above and on daniel-'s thread.


The older I get ... which seems to be excelerating rapidly - the more I want to give Sola-Scripture answers and read them too.

Love y'all.;-)
Shalom~Shalom, from my heart.

 2007/6/2 20:44
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

In a nutshell, all does mean ALL.

So, yes, Paul teaches that eventually, all of those who are part of the nation of Israel will come to salvation. This is confirmed also the closing chapters of Zechariah, where Israel is brought through a time of burning. Those who survive the redemptive judgments God brings upon them through will find salvation. Just as the prophet Isaiah also said, "Then [b]all[/b] your people will be righteous; they will possess the land forever, the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, that I might be glorified." (Isaiah 60:21)

Also just a note, the apostle Paul argues that the spiritual value of the eventual conversion of all the Jews will be so great that it will bring about the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age (Romans 11:12-15). Why? For if their rejection of the gospel brought about the blessing of the gospel being spread to all the Gentile nations, then their acceptance of the gospel will be a greater blessing than their rejection! So much so as to bring about life to the dead!

I highly recommend the teachings of Art Katz concerning these things- which are available on this site. He has many sermons on this very issue. Though I don't know if it is a great place to start, consider listening to his 2 part session on "Romans 11" from the 2006 Prophetical school, where he goes through much of this stuff verse by verse.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/6/2 23:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
RobertW wrote------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Will what this verse says literally happen?
-------------------------------------------------------------


This question is similar to questions that surround the coming of the Lord. There are two ways to answer the question, I think. One is a 'future' YES and one is a present day 'YES'. In like manor the Lord is coming for His Saints with ten thousands of His Saints, etc. This is a future event. But the Lord comes for Saints every hour of every day. For all that have died in Christ- the day of their death He 'came for them'.

Putting off the salvation of Jews to the future is for me a most terrible concept...

Hi Robert

I agree, people are being saved, including Jews every day. The promise of "All Israel" being saved seems to be a more general one, for the future, perhaps a mass revival? It doesn't deny that many are being saved here and now!

I like your "'future' YES and present day 'YES'"

Blessings

Jeannette


 2007/6/3 6:46









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Not mocking the thread or thread question at all, believe me ven I tell ya.

Hi again Annie

Are you actually Jewish, as a matter of interest?
Quote:
But after reading daniel-'s thread and posting on it too ... I'm happy to see Jeannette bring up Zechariah again on here.

I posted to read chpt 14 on that other thread and posted these verses there too ... but I would have liked to have said ... read Zech chpt.s 12 through 14.

Why must we spiritualize so much ?

No, we mustn't spiritualise too much. Spiritual and physical are intertwined and difficult to separate in our understanding - as I wrote in the Hebrews 11 thread. That is probably the reason for most of the disagreements on Bible interpretation. Usually, I think, [i][u]both[/u][/i] spiritual and non-spiritual meanings are true!
Quote:
The verses that LittleGift gave above from Zech should be enough in themselves .... but maybe if all three of those chpt.s are read right through it would be plainer .... if God is just plain-out taken at His own Word. If He says He's going to save them - I believe He will ... at the appointed time mentioned above and on daniel-'s thread.

But, although "all means all" (was it you or someone else who said that?), there is a disagreement about which "all" is being referred to! Certainly all the people of God, completed in Christ, but there is disagreement about who exactly the people of God are. I maintain that at this presne time there are [i]two[/i] peoples, the physical and the spiritual Israel. And that the relevant scriptures could probably mean either or both!

But I suspect I'm in danger of getting metaphysical instead of spiritual, so better try and stop there 8-)
Quote:
The older I get ... which seems to be excelerating rapidly - the more I want to give Sola-Scripture answers and read them too.

Love y'all.;-)
Shalom~Shalom, from my heart.

Love you too!

Your style is a breath of fresh air!

Jeannette

 2007/6/3 7:03









 Re: LittleGift - S.S.P.

Sorry So Pokey.

Oy, that last line - didn't ya get that PM yet to tell ya to hold your breath then ? Ha.
"fresh" had two meanings when I was in Kindergarten. Like folks who use this smilie that some of us don't like -> :-P . Ha. We used to call the boys who pulled our hair "freshies". My Kindergarten teacher who I loved and she liked me, incredible as that was, wrote in my first report card that I was "silly" and on my last report card for graduation to 1st Grade, she said "is still silly".

O.K. now - going back to Israel and your one question ...

Hey, I'm a daughter of Abraham - I am one of them - and so are you - so let's just Praise The LORD - right arm - left arm - stomp your feet - turn around. I left some of the words out.
Have you ever heard that song "Father Abraham" that the children sing in Choich ? Ha - I love that one. Good Exercise with it too. First Arobics allowed in a Church. Ha.

Sure there's a physical and spiritual Israel and Jerusalem and all of that that you all have been discusing or discusting. Ha - I've lost my zeal for debate. Mellowing out in my old age - [u]Thank God[/u].

You wouldn't have recognized me 5 years ago. (Who said 1 year ago ? - Stand at the back of the class. :-p ) Ha. I loved apologetic debates. Liked CARM and others like it. I had the Greek and it's grammar and fourteen miles of Scriptures to post and boy, let me tell ya ... "fresh" was not the woid for it. Wellll, I was bored to tell ya the truth.
Suddenly couldn't work anymore so I was 'ticked off' about it (Lyme/ME) and took it out on the keyboard and anyone I'd see or catch on my monitor. Swat ! :-?


Now where were we ? Oh yeah, "metaphysical" ... well, as long as you don't get paraspiritual, I think you're on safe ground.

Seriously though - The only thing that upsets the grannie in me is replacement theology when discusing who's who in this world zoo.
I don't like racial or other types of judging.
Anyways - I think I answered earlier - somewheres ? about Love and stuff and on this subject we're on with this thread. If I find where I posted that I'll let ya know.

Peace/Shalom in any language is Beautiful.
TTYL
Love.
Silly

thank you btw.

 2007/6/3 16:48
BENOTLEH
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 14
Newnan Georgia

 Re: All Israel Will Be Saved?

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

but before this Paul says:

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6-8 (KJV)

and

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved
Romans 9:27 (KJV)



_________________
Bryan Helton

 2007/6/3 19:47Profile









 Re:

Amen BENOTLEH.

Do you feel, as we posted, that these are those mentioned here ? ...

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Thank you.
Annie

 2007/6/3 22:21





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