| Poster | Thread | enid
Member
Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England
| | Re: | | Vasilef,
You asked if a piece of paper makes them husband and wife?
What piece of paper did Adam and Eve have?
Were they or were they not husband and wife?
Please, show us some scripture to show that living together in an unmarried state is approved by God.
God bless. |
|  2007/5/30 9:35 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Does a piece of paper make you wife and husband?
I can take you all the way back to the OT Law and show you that marriage was not only a commitment between man, woman & God... but it was also a legal contract. But is it really neccessary that we do that? If you want to make excuses and try to legitimize sin, there are plenty of ways to do that too.
You yourself said they were not married... and now you're asking if a piece of paper makes them married? Uh, yes... in the eyes of the state it does. In the eyes of God, He requires a commitment from both of them, and in other scriptures He requires them to submit to the earthly authorities as well.
We can get really complicated about this, or you can acknowledge that they are not living in marriage but in fornication... and if she does not cease this she can not enter the Kingdom of God. At that point, she can say she was saved all day long, but if she doesnt evidence that thru obedience to God's Word, then she never truly [b]repented[/b]... and was therefore never truly saved.
This is a very serious issue, and I recommend we stop trying to justify and use human reasoning. God's Word is painfully clear about all of this.
Krispy |
| | 2007/5/30 9:56 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hello Vasilef,
I am not aware of the laws of Romania concerning marriage. In many states within the United States, a couple that has cohabitated for such a long time (and presented themselves to the world as such) would be considered a "common law" marriage. They would be entitled to all of the "legal" discriptions of a marriage because of the length of the cohabitation. If I remember correctly, the term "common law marriage" differs quite a bit in Europe than in the United States. In essence, such a marriage in the United States is a marriage established on the principle of "habit." No wedding is necessary for the marriage to be legal. In fact, most states do not even require a "divorce" for such a marriage. It is simply a reference by the state to identify relationships that the state deems a "marriage." However, in some states (like Texas), an individual may still be required to obtain a certificate of "divorce" from a common law marriage -- even when no certificate of marriage exists! This is to prevent couples from misusing legal protections, forcing them to identify with a single legal communion.
I want to point out that there are historic references to Christian marriages that were not recognized by the Government. During the many religous conflicts in Europe over the past millenium, there have been instances where the official Church of the State would not recognize the marriages of true believers. This was done to embarrass couples "into the fold" of the official Church -- or entire ethnic or geographic provinces into submission to the State. Often, a "secret marriage" was performed to create a marriage covenant. While the official Church and the State did not respect such unions, it was viewed as valid by those believers (and rightfully so, I believe).
I am very cautious about offering advice in this case. Is a couple that lives as a married couple for such a long period of time considered legally married in Romania? Is a couple legally married only if they obtain a signed copy of a marriage license by the State? If there is no legal basis for a "marriage" to exist -- then it appears that they are merely living together. If that is the case, and if this was a sister, I would probably counsel her to leave this man.
Regardless, I will be praying for this situation and for this couple. May the Lord give you the wisdom beyond wisdom to share!
:-)
_________________
Christopher
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| | 2007/5/30 10:05 | Profile | PreachParsly
Member
Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas
| | Re: | | Quote:
Gen 2v24, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.'
Is she his wife? I'll leave you to answer that one.
I've seen the question of "what makes a marriage a "marriage?" discussed on other message boards, but have yet to see it here. What makes it a marriage? Is all that is required is that they leave and cleave together?
Quote:
I can take you all the way back to the OT Law and show you that marriage was not only a commitment between man, woman & God... but it was also a legal contract. But is it really neccessary that we do that? If you want to make excuses and try to legitimize sin, there are plenty of ways to do that too.
I would like to see what you have to say on the issue if you have time, brother. Or anyone else for that matter.
I'm a firm believer in having a ceremony... just wanting to make that clear.
_________________
Josh Parsley
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| | 2007/5/30 10:08 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: when life doesn't work the way we want it to | | Quote:
Does a piece of paper make you wife and husband?
Good question. Certainly in our culture we are obsessed with legal documents. Legal documents make everything right even at the expense of love. (Legalism and legal papers do sound faintly similar.) Our response to cases such as this one presented depends on our goal: Do we desire to see a form of godliness, or the power of godliness for this family?
There are all kinds serious issues to consider in these cases that wont magically get cleared up with some govt papers. Far too often we Christians leave people in horrible dilemmas. No matter which they turn they are stuck in sin - and we dont lift a finger to get them out their hellhole of guilt. In that respect, we are no different than the Pharisees.
Consider women like this dear lady (and there are many in her situation) She wants to get married legally, and hears voices from the religious community that she is no different than prostitutes an evil sinner. If she listens to our advice and coerces her husband into getting a civil ceremony (maybe bribing him with tears, or threats of abandonment), she ends up violating all kinds of scriptures. Her guilt may be absolved, but she has merely usurped authority and control over her husband. If she wins she has merely reinforced that role. Ahhh, you may say, but she is legally married!!!
If she leaves her husband in order to escape her sin or comply with her religious piers, she is committing all kinds of other sins. Indeed, she is NOT more right with God! Think of her responsibilities: her kids. Lets face it, kids dont care about legal documents in a drawer. Their stability rests on the security provided by their caregivers: Mom AND Dad. It is well documented that the most traumatic pain a child endures is the separation of their parents. Their entire world is torn apart no matter how much adults try to explain the need of it. Just listen to the countless testimonies of adults who still suffer the repercussions of divorce (separation).
We in the Christian community idolize commitments: we are eager for people to come forward, to commit their hearts to the Lord, etc. We like good intentions. We like vows. We even rest people's salvation on them. It gives some assurance, I guess, but to God vows mean very little.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matt 5: 36, 37
Here is a question to consider:
In the end whom is God most pleased with: Those who said yes and then didnt obey or those who said no and then DID obey.
This life-narrative isnt finished yet. God takes an entire lifetime to work in lives, and wed do best working with HIM rather than trying to play God in peoples lives.
Would it be a sin if this family's loved ones and Christian friends acknowleged the relationship as a marriage (which is how it is functioning), or is the gov't only entitled to that role?
Diane
_________________
Diane
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| | 2007/5/30 10:54 | Profile | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | The woman should stay in the home.
Her presence in the home as a godly woman will do more to convict the man than her leaving would. Let her turn to the Lord with her whole heart: the love and commitment that shine forth from her life will eventually win over her "husband."
If there were no children involved here, I think, yes, she could take a stand and leave. But as there are children involved, she should continue in the relationship for the children's sake. When children are involved, the sword that cuts a marriage in half (whether common-law or documented) cuts the children in half, too. And they will bleed over it for a long, long time, likely for the rest of their lives.
As to the comment that she couldn't in good conscience marry him anyway since he is an unbeliever (even if he consented), this in my estimation doesn't get it right. If the man was pleased to do that, even though an unbeliever, it would be the right thing to do, again, because of the children.
These painful and complicated situations can't be all treated in a cut and dried manner. There needs to be wisdom and grace in the Church for people who have made bad decisions, living in sin, and later repent and turn to the Lord.
By way of illustration, in the early church there were converts who had more than one wife. What did the apostles counsel them? Even though it is the will of God and has been from the beginning that a man have one wife, the apostles counselled that these families should not be torn apart. It would have been cruel for a man to ditch one of his wives and her children. The only stipulation the apostles laid down was that the man could not be made an elder of the church. (See 1 Tim. 3.2.)
Likewise we in our day need the same wisdom and grace and sensitivity to deal with difficult problems like the one involving this couple.
The woman in this case, I think, should pray something along this line (she has probably already done so): Lord Jesus, thank you for your infinite grace and forgiveness in receiving me into Your fold. I'm sorry, Lord, for the bad decisions I made. Forgive me, Lord... and You see how complicated this situation is now. I love my "husband," forgive us, Lord. and I love my children and don't want to see their lives torn apart. Forgive us, Lord. I commit this whole situation to You....
...My counsel. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses..." I pray you are able to get the witness of the Spirit in this difficult matter.
AD
_________________
Allan Halton
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| | 2007/5/30 11:47 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
The woman should stay in the home.
I truly thank the Lord that most of you are not counselors. There is some tremendously unscriptural and ungodly advice going forth here today.
"Stay in an unrepentent, sinful situation... because there are kids involved."
My my my... are you folks listening to what you're saying? Does anyone consider, before you just throw in your two cents worth, that there are probably many people reading this thread who we are not aware of... and will use you so-called "advice" as an excuse not to leave their sinful lifestyles?
Counseling and giving advice on such situations as this is a serious matter. I hope y'all are prepared to answer for the advice... and results that follow.
I'm amazed at this thread. This is nuts.
Krispy |
| | 2007/5/30 11:50 | | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Are you being a bit defensive, Krispy, in weighing the counsel of others as only worth about two cents? :)
I, for one, try to consider carefully before the Lord what I put forth, far from just "throwing it in."
As far as using what I and others have said as an excuse to continue living a sinful lifestyle, the woman in this case has sought to do that, and has turned to the Lord. But there is a serious complication. The children.
But maybe there are further things that need to be asked.
Is the man still an alcoholic? Is he abusive? To the wife, to the children?
And how old are the children? It sounds like this has been a long-term relationship; maybe the children are older and are themselves near the age of leaving the home?
Or if he is an abusive husband, if the children live in fear, then that changes the picture. Under such circumstances, the woman should leave.
But if he is more or less a good dad, and the children love him, and he loves the children, she should stay.
AD
_________________
Allan Halton
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| | 2007/5/30 13:03 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | I agree with Krispy, this thread is insane.
The scripture is explicit on what to do in this situation.
Those who say the woman should stay with the man need to repent of such ungodly advice.
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/5/30 13:09 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Are you being a bit defensive, Krispy, in weighing the counsel of others as only worth about two cents? :)
He isn't being defensive, he's merely flabbergasted at the completely unbiblical advice being given!!!
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/5/30 13:12 | Profile |
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