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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why did the apostles have to come down?

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I have read and re-read your last post and it all seems like the old phrase 'six of one, half a dozen of the other'.

You say, 'When a person has the seal of the Spirit, they belong to Christ'

I say, 'When a person belongs to Christ they have the seal of the Spirit.'

I am just trying to understand how we differ so please bear with me for a moment:

Are you saying that a person can belong to Christ without having the Spirit?
Are you saying that a person can have faith in Christ without belonging to Christ?
Are you saying that a person can have faith in Christ without having the Spirit?

 2007/5/24 16:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In this portion of scripture Paul equates that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same thing.

If the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is one in the same, who is the Holy Spirit?

 2007/5/24 17:14
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that a person can belong to Christ without having the Spirit?
Are you saying that a person can have faith in Christ without belonging to Christ?
Are you saying that a person can have faith in Christ without having the Spirit?


I am saying that only those who have the Spirit are Christ's in the sense that Paul uses it in Romans 8. The criterion is 'do they have the Spirit?' The criterion is not if they have gone through some evangelical processing or prayed a sinner's prayer. The question is 'do they have the Spirit?' If they do they are Christ's.

The real question is 'how does a man or a woman know if they have the Spirit?'


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/24 18:35Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ron, I believe we are saying the same thing...differently.

 2007/5/24 19:00Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, I believe we are saying the same thing...differently.


I don't think we are, although I may be mistaken.

I think, and please tell me if I am mistaken, that you are saying when a person 'becomes a Christian' ie 'belongs to Christ' he automatically receives the Spirit. I am saying I question this definition of 'becoming a Christian/belonging to Christ' if we are talking about the normal evangelical experience of being counselled and praying the sinner's prayer.

When God took up residence in the Tabernacle and later in Solomon's Temple there was no doubt but that the Spirit of God had come. They did not say we have done everything that we were supposed to do therefore the Spirit 'must have come'. The presence of God, by the Spirit, was not a logical deduction but an observed fact.

I am saying that the 'observed fact' of 'belonging to Christ' in Biblical terms is that a man or a woman 'has the Spirit of God'. I think you are saying that if a man is reckoned to be a Christian because he has gone through certain evangelical processes then he can be said to 'have the Spirit'. I am saying the 'observed fact' is not that he has 'responded' or 'prayed' but that the Spirit has come. A seal was a visible evidence.

I am saying that it is the 'visible' (and I am still not talking about tongues or tingles) evidence of the Spirit that authenticates that a man or woman is 'owned by God' and hence 'His'. Or to restate it in the 'negative' as we have it in Romans: But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now [b]if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His[/b]. (Romans 8:9 NKJV)This does not say 'if we are His we have the Spirit of Christ' it says, effectively, 'if we have the Spirit of Christ we are His.'


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/25 3:46Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I believe we are saying the same thing, because I agree with this statement:

Quote:
I am saying I question this definition of 'becoming a Christian/belonging to Christ' if we are talking about the normal evangelical experience of being counselled and praying the sinner's prayer.



When I refer to becoming a Christian I am talking about truth faith and repentance, not the 'walk the aisle/repeat after me' experience that is so prevalent in our churches.

I agree that true Salvation comes when a person has received the Spirit of God. The terminology I used was that the Spirit of God comes when a person becomes a Christian (in the biblical sense, not the modern evangelical sense.)

What I am against is the belief that a person can truly believe, have faith and repentance and not receive the Spirit of God. I do not see the receiving of the Spirit of God as being distinct from Salvation.

 2007/5/25 8:48Profile
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Quote:

What I am against is the belief that a person can truly believe, have faith and repentance and not receive the Spirit of God. I do not see the receiving of the Spirit of God as being distinct from Salvation.


Acts 8 shows that the people Philip preached to people had faith and repented, however hadn't yet 'received the Spirit'. I don't doubt they were saved at this point.

I don't think it is saying that they were without the Holy Spirit prior to 'receiving the Holy Spirit', as much as it would be wrong to say that Jesus was without the Holy Ghost before the Holy Ghost came upon Him in the form of a dove.

The main question then is: What exactly is 'receiving the Spirit' as a separate experience to salvation as described in Acts 8?

PassingThru

 2007/5/25 9:18Profile
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
The main question then is: What exactly is 'receiving the Spirit' as a separate experience to salvation as described in Acts 8?


I agree with you, this is what we ought to be looking into. I have studied it and come to some of my own beliefs and oppinions but I fully realize that I may be mistaken on what I see.
I look forward to some discussion on this question.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/5/25 9:35Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Acts 8 shows that the people Philip preached to people had faith and repented, however hadn't yet 'received the Spirit'. I don't doubt they were saved at this point.



Acts 8 is not the norm. Acts 10 proves that.

I should have been more specific and said:
"In our day, I do not believe that a person can truly believe, have faith and repentance and not receive the Spirit of God."

 2007/5/25 9:54Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
The main question then is: What exactly is 'receiving the Spirit' as a separate experience to salvation as described in Acts 8?



John 7:38-39
38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jesus clearly combines belief with the receiving of the Spirit. The event that must come before the receiving of the Spirit is the glorification of Jesus.

John 14:16-17
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

The Spirit of God is received only by the children of God. The lost world cannot receive the Spirit. The Spirit is the Christian's helper/Counselor.

John 20:21-22
21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was given to some Disciples before Jesus ascended into heaven through His breath. This was not the event of Pentecost but was in fact a forerunner to the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Jesus tells His disciples to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit comes upon them to give them power to be witnesses.

Acts 2:33
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Peter told the crowd who had seen the outpouring of the Spirit, that this came from God.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter tells the people that if they repent and are baptized they will receive the Spirit of God. Does repentance and baptism have to come before the receiving of the Spirit?

Acts 8 gives the impression that one must repent and be baptized before the Spirit is received.

Acts 10 tells us plainly that the Spirit can be received before baptism.

Acts 19 tells us about some people who were disciples who never even heard of the Spirit of God. They only had John's baptism. So, Paul baptized them into the name of Jesus and placed his hands on them and they received the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God was not received at baptism but on the placing of Paul's hands.

Paul asks a very interesting question in Galatians 3:2:
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Paul plainly states that the Spirit of God is received by faith in God.

Galatians 3:14 says,
"so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."

Once again Paul says that the Spirit is received through faith.

This is how Christians today receive the Spirit of God...through Faith. The Spirit is not received through baptism, but through faith. The Spirit is not received apart from faith, but by faith.

 2007/5/25 10:16Profile





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