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intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
I've read their book, I've watched their DVD. It was about a year ago though.
But yes, I want exact scriptures. I know they say Jesus used the Law, I know they say it is "the way of the master" but I want to see an exact scriptures. I guess I could watch the DVD again, but I thought that given the exuberance towards this method that people would already have had them handy.
I'd like to clarify again that in no way am I against telling people they are bad. I totally want people to repent, that is major. I do believe that a man cannot come to Christ before he realizes he is evil and God is good. I also don't think that this method is horrible, and I agree that it seems to convert people. But I still wouldn't use it because I don't agree that it is a "biblical use of the law". As a gentile, the only law I've ever been under is the law of my conscience and the law of grace.
I do not see in any epistle, in any sermon in acts, or in any gospel a use of the ten commandments to convert people. But I am a young Christian, and I may have just forgotten. I don't mind if people quote the ten commandments to sinners or have it on their lawn. I'm not going to in anyway avoid using the ten commandments.



Let's look at the sermon on the mount.
This sermon not only reveals God’s divine nature, it also paints man’s condition and weighs it in contrast. The straightedge of God’s Moral Law reveals how crooked we are:

v. 3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The unregenerate heart isn’t poor in spirit. It is proud, self-righteous, and boastful every man is pure in his own eyes

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the spirit.
Proverbs 16:2.

Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
Proverbs 20:6


v. 4: “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

The unsaved don’t mourn over their sin; they love the darkness and hate the light

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
John 3:18-21


v. 5: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

The ungodly are not meek and lowly of heart.


v. 6: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Sinners don’t hunger and thirst after righteousness. Instead, they drink iniquity like
water

Behold, God _puts no trust in his holy ones,
and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt,
a man who drinks injustice like water!
Job 15:15-16


v. 7: 7“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

The world is unable to show true compassion. It is by nature cruel and vindictive

5The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5.

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6


v. 8: “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

The heart of the unregenerate is not pure; it is desperately wicked

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9.


v. 9-12 9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons _of God.
10“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Those who are born again manifest the fruit of the Spirit, live godly in Christ Jesus, and therefore suffer persecution with perseverance.


v. 13–16. 13“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.
14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

A believer’s purpose on earth is to be salt and light: to be a moral influence, and to bring the light to those who sit in the shadow of death.


v. 17-18 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished

He establishes that He didn’t come to destroy the Moral Law; not even the smallest part of it will pass away since it represents God’s standard, it is therefore a constant.


v. 19-20 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those who teach it “shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” Its function is to destroy self-righteousness and bring sinners to the cross. The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was merely outward, but God requires truth in the inward parts

Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psalm 51:6.

Jesus shows this by unveiling the Law’s spiritual nature.


v. 21–26 21“You have heard that it was said to those of old, _‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother _will be liable to judgment; whoever insults _his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell _of fire. 23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

The Sixth Commandment outlaws murder. However, Jesus condemns anger “without cause,” and even evil-speaking

Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give an account thereof in the day of judgment
Matthew 12:36.


v. 27–32 27“You have heard that it was said, _‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31“It was also said, _‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Seventh Commandment forbids adultery, but Jesus revealed that this also includes lust, and it even condemns divorce, except in the case of sexual sin of the spouse.


v. 33–37 33“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

Jesus opens up the Ninth Commandment, and then shows that love is the spirit of the Law..


v. 38–47 38“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But _if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, _let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, _‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, _what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Only when a sinner is born again through the renewal and regeneration of the Holy Spirit is he able to do this.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again _he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3


v. 48 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Without the righteousness of Christ he cannot be perfect as his Father in heaven is perfect. The Law demolishes self-righteousness leaving him undone and condemned. His only hope is faith and repentance through grace as demonstrated by the cross of Jesus Christ


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/5/24 16:14Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ray makes it perfectly clear in 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' that the inspiration came from the story of the Rich man coming to Jesus.

Mark 10
17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." 21And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

The Rich man came to Jesus wanting to know what must be done to inherit eternal life. Jesus didn't tell him to repeat a prayer, no he took him to the moral law of God to show him his sinfulness.

That is Ray's message that I believe is almost completely lost in our day. God has a righteous standard that we have broken. We deserve punishment for breaking His law and justice will be carried out on us, unless we cling to Jesus.

Ray's message is the Law because the Law points to Christ. It is by the law that sin becomes exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13). It makes no sense to tell a person that they are a sinner, unless you explain to them why they are a sinner.

 2007/5/24 16:23Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

No!
I must speak strongly against how intrcssr83 used the Beatitudes.
That is horrible. Jesus did not preach the Beatitudes to condemn. He was delivering the New Covenant of grace....

Some scriptures have been mentioned. I haven't ignored them. I am studying all the scriptures on the use of the law. There are many. Of course, I already believe that there is a lawful use of the law. I'm trying to determine whether the ten commandments + Jesus's additions are what is meant.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/5/24 20:30Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Ray makes it perfectly clear in 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' that the inspiration came from the story of the Rich man coming to Jesus.



That is strange.

Jesus said to obey the law. He wasn't saying that to condemn the fellow. He was just saying thats what you do. And when the young ruler said he had kept them, unlike Ray or Kirk, he didn't press the issue. He didn't say "of course you have, don't you know adultery is lust" or "you had to have lied once!". Instead Jesus moved on from the law. "Sell all you have and give to the poor" is not the law. That's new. That is what sent the ruler away sorrowful.

This is not a refutation of the use of the law to convict. 1 Timothy says there is a lawful use of the law. However, this text shows that Jesus did not use the WoTM technique.

Edit: I edited this post because I used a sarcastic word.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/5/24 20:37Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus said to obey the law. He wasn't saying that to condemn the fellow. He was just saying thats what you do. And when the young ruler said he had kept them, unlike Ray or Kirk, he didn't press the issue. He didn't say "of course you have, don't you know adultery is lust" or "you had to have lied once!". Instead Jesus moved on from the law. "Sell all you have and give to the poor" is not the law. That's new. That is what sent the ruler away sorrowful.



He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements. That is what the WOTM is all about; exposing the fact that sinners fall short...that they are guilty in light of God’s holy and just requirements. It’s not about getting them saved on the spot; it’s about cracking stony hearts.


And one other thing…it’s harder now than ever. It went from adultery to lust, from murder to hate; Jesus really upped the requirements.


_________________
TJ

 2007/5/24 21:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Right use

Quote:
As a gentile, the only law I've ever been under is the law of my conscience and the law of grace.



This seems to be a confusing of terms and application.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?


All of chapter 3 might be reconsidered.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for [b][u]ye[/u][/b] are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The unsaved are most certainly under the law and as was pointed out earlier the law is not abolished but fulfilled, furthermore neither are we exempt either by this ...


From Albert Barnes,

[b]For we are not under law[/b] - We who are Christians are not subject to that law where sin is excited, and where it rages unsubdued. But it may be asked here, What is meant by this declaration? Does it mean that Christians are absolved from all the obligations of the law? I answer,

(1) The apostle does not affirm that Christians are not bound to obey the moral law. The whole scope of his reasoning shows that he maintains that they are. The whole structure of Christianity supposes the same thing; compare Mat_5:17-19.

(2) the apostle means to say that Christians are not under the law as legalists, or as attempting to be justified by it. They seek a different plan of justification altogether: and they do not attempt to be justified by their own obedience. The Jews did; they do not.

(3) it is implied here that the effect of an attempt to be justified by the Law was not to subdue sins, but to excite them and to lead to indulgence in them.

Justification by works would destroy no sin, would check no evil propensity, but would leave a man to all the ravages and riotings of unsubdued passion. If, therefore, the apostle had maintained that people were justified by works, he could not have consistently exhorted them to abandon their sins. He would have had no powerful motives by which to urge it; for the scheme would not lead to it. But he here says that the Christian was seeking justification on a plan which contemplated and which accomplished the destruction of sin; and he therefore infers that sin should not have dominion over them.

[b]But under grace[/b] - Under a scheme of mercy, the design and tendency of which is to subdue sin, and destroy it. In what way the system of grace removes and destroys sin, the apostle states in the following verses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It can take considerable time to work through all of Romans until it works unfettered in us and begins to make more spiritual than logical sense if I could put it that way. One notice brother and it may well apply to others is that on one hand there is the appealing to the Holy Spirit to guide in any given situation while at the same time the word "preference" is mentioned simultaneously.

Something I have been chewing on and writing a bit about is the notice that the word of God is [i]in[/i] us, if it truly is in ever expanding measure. Being faithful to the Scriptures and being faithful to the Lord are one and the same. What the Holy Spirit will use is that which is already present and that which is written. A bit off the line here perhaps but the 'use' of anything seems very dependent on these facts and the timing, verbalization or non-verbalization in any given moment entirely upon how much resource there is to draw from, how willing we are to internal listening and that which we truly understand.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/5/25 0:38Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro TJServant
Greetings in Christ's name.

Quote:
He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements.



The rich young ruler didn't go away sorrowful because he came up short on the requirements. Christ commended him for keeping the law. The man was a pillar of the society and had fulfilled the law completely, he was like a pharisee insamuch as the law was concerned.

He went away sad because he didn't want to let go of his riches. There is another rich man who is mentioned in the next chapter of Luke after the story of the rich young ruler. His name was Zacchaeus and he was quite the opposite to this man but he repented and salvation came to his house said our Lord. our Lord has shown me something about these two men and as He leads i shall share it on the boards or if you like i can email it to you.

Grace and Peace unto you in His name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/5/25 3:09Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Ironman is saying exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks :-)

But the real reason I replied is because I'd like to remind everyone that I am a sister, not a brother.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/5/25 7:34Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

tjservant wrote:

Quote:
He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements.



IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
The rich young ruler didn't go away sorrowful because he came up short on the requirements.Christ commended him for keeping the law. The man was a pillar of the society and had fulfilled the law completely, he was like a pharisee insamuch as the law was concerned.
He went away sad because he didn't want to let go of his riches.



Jesus sees he is sincere in his pursuit and it says he loved him. He loved him enough to tell him what he needed to hear, pointing to the one thing hindering him. The ruler said to Jesus what he thought he kept, Jesus told him what he did not. He probably thought he kept it all and would be commended, that there would be nothing to hinder him. However, Jesus puts his finger on just one thing--“Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” Notice that Jesus pointed to a requirement of the law for the poor, that was not part of the 10 commandments but in the law of Moses. He also told the man to deny himself and follow Him. The Bible states that possession of wealth involves responsibility - to be compassionate to the poor.

He knew that this man was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. He may have thought that the teacher would give him a specific task or work to carry out once, and that would confirm to him eternal life. But Jesus gave him something that required him to humble himself and bring his life under the authority of Christ. Instead, Jesus drove him to the law, he gave him a requirement that went to the heart of the issue: his MONEY and the rich young man’s desire to retain control of his life. You shall not covet was the part that he did not keep, this because evident from his reaction to what Jesus said that he must do.



_________________
TJ

 2007/5/25 8:47Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Brothers and Sisters

Greetings in Christ's name by whose blood we are washed and made acceptable before the Father.

[i][b]sister[/b][/i]Hopepurifies
now that we have that sorted out :-P This is the second or 3rd time this has happened to me on these boards!

thanks for sorting that out

Grace and Peace unto you sis!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/5/25 11:42Profile





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