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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Veils

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Just some thoughts on this subject. I wondered whether to put them here or in the "meditation" section:

Hebrews 6:19[i][b][color=000099] ...This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus...[/color][/b][/i]

Hebrews 10:19f [i][b][color=000099]Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us pdraw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith...[/color][/b][/i]

We have access in Christ "within the veil", as it says in Hebrews, but I suddenly realised, during conversation with a friend, that we have "veils of our own that sometimes we won't, or maybe can't, let go of - unless the Lord deals with them. "Veils" of our own making, false coverings...

Is that why, in the Song of Solomon chapter 5, (taking it as an allegory of the Lord's relationship with us), the girl had her veil taken from her by the watchmen when she sought her Beloved (after being unwilling to let Him in)?

I always saw this taking away of the veil (or mantle) as a punishment, but now wonder if it represents the Lord's [i]mercy[/i] to us!

In that culture, taking away a woman's mantle was to shame her - the greatest shame and insult - exposing her before the world. But to at last find her Beloved, and come into the relatioship with Him that He desired, it maybe was necessary that she be stripped of this "false" covering.

For the bride before her bridegroom, after they are married, removes her veil. And a wife can be naked before her husband, but before no other man - yet not ashamed.

Earlier in chapter 5 she had even hidden behind her own doors and bars, and only after He withdrew did she find the willingness, indeed desperation, to open the door and seek Him.

Can we truly come within [i]His[/i] veil until we let go of our own?

Is this why we often seem to have difficulty with haveing a sense of His Presence in our lives, or in "getting through" in prayer?

Moses put a veil over his face when he'd been talking to the Lord. Was that to cover the glory on his face, or to cover the fading of it?

But we don't need to be covered in His presence (2Corinthians 3:7-4:6))

3:18 [i][b][color=000099]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, care being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color][/b][/i]

4:6 [i][b][color=000099]For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [/color][/b][/i]

Ruth took off her mantle when Boaz accepted her plea to come under his covering (ie to marry her). And instead of a covering, hiding her - as it were - from him, it became a container for a gift of grain - as much as she could carry (Ruth 3:9-17)

Zechariah 3 is an amazing passage too. The [i]high priest[/i] in filthy clothes, [i]in the presence of the Lord![/i] It could be taken as Jesus who "became sin, who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in him". Even his name, Joshua, is the same as Jesus'.

Or it could be taken as a picture of the "covering" of the Lord on the believer.

But there was a time in this vision when they took away the filthy clothes and he was naked!

Are we hiding behind our gates and bars, hiding from Him? Am I???

Are we like Adam who put on a false covering of his own making, and hid because he knew he was naked? Or like Israel at Sinai, when they pleaded that God wouldn't talk with them any more because they were afraid - even with the Veil in place.

We have to be made naked before the Lord - even though Satan accuse and seek to destroy us - before we can come within His veil, and be reclothed with the garments of salvation, the robes of righteousness!

All glory to HIM!


 2007/5/21 12:11

Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: Veils

I've been blessed by this, thanks.

Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/5/21 12:19Profile

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: Veils


I have been wanting to share a thought or two concerning veils since I read this thread you started.

I, too, think on this often: it is a very big thing, this matter of the veil.

...So just a few thoughts, not put together comprehensively by any means.

Isaiah talks about "the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" (Isa. 25.7). So this is a very big thing. "If our gospel be hid (veiled), it is veiled in them that are lost, in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..." There is a veil over the hearts and minds of all peoples, and our Lord intends to remove that veil "in this mountain" (which I believe is speaking of the Kingdom of God, or the New Covenant... or bringing it a little closer to home, in US. In US, the Lord removes that veil). (We take off our shoes here, Lord.)

...So definitely, as you said, there are the veils over our own hearts, and which do, as you said, give us much difficulty in our desire to come into His Presence, and reveal His Presence...

"Nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit..." (2 Cor. 3).

I think I may say my greatest struggle is in seeking to give the Spirit of the Lord His total Lordship in my life. The Spirit of the Lord is the only one who can take away the veil, and show us Jesus, unveiled. And the Spirit of the Lord, to do this, leads us in the way of the Cross, and it is the Cross that rends the veil, His flesh... (And so, without trying to get theological about it, for I don't fully comprehend this... we, too have a veil of "flesh" that must be rent, that others might see Him in us. And only the Spirit of the Lord can do this, rend our flesh, lead us in the Way of the Cross that alone can rend our flesh...)

Oh, to trust Him more, the Spirit of the Lord. Minister this to us, Lord, this trust.

I recall a poem I read years ago by Margaret Barber, who was inspirational in Watchman Nee's life.

If the path I travel lead me to a cross,
If the way Thou choosest lead to pain and loss,
Let the compensation daily, hourly, be
Shadowless communion, blessed Lord, with Thee.

I am always convicted by this little poem. Unveiled communion. I so much appreciate the communion I have. But it is not this: unbroken, never fading. Yet why do we so habitually settle for less? Nothing less than this is His own desire.

...One more thought. You wondered whether Moses put the veil on his face to hide the glory or the fading glory. I think in most translations, and in the original Hebrew (from Exodus) and Greek (from 2 Corinthians), it's clear he was covering the fading glory. (The word "till" in Ex. 34.33 is in italics; it should read "when.") For Moses was moving prophetically: the Old Covenant he was mediating was to fade away and give way to a New. And so as Moses, coming down from the mountain with shining face, as he ministered that covenant, when he became aware the glory was fading, he covered his face. But this fact, of its fading, was ultimately to be rejected by Israel; they would not accept it. As Paul says, even to this (New Covenant) day, when Moses is read, that veil is upon their hearts, it is veiled to them that in Christ the Old Covenant and its glory is done away.

But Paul says, we, unlike Moses, are to partake of a fadeless glory! "We all with open face (unveiled face) mirroring the glory of the Lord and changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord..." What precious truth lies before us! The New Covenent, unlike the old, is to involve us in fadeless, abiding, enduring, excelling glory! And is to transfigure us into His own image!

Which leaves you asking, Lord, even after all these centuries, how much have we really entered into of the abiding glory of your New Covenant?

And which leaves you praying before the Throne of grace, Lord, what I really want is that you deal with the veils in my own heart and mind, that I might know You face to face. Amen.


Allan Halton

 2007/5/22 22:09Profile

 Re: Veils

Interesting questions here. I would like to comment.

While the glory may have been fading, it was refreshed every time Moses spent time with the Lord, with his face unveiled.

Exodus 34:29 - 35
Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony [i]were[/i] in Moses' hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the LORD had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.

But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.

This is exactly the point Paul is making in the 2 Corinthian 3 verses, where there is no mirror in some translations - making the parallel much clearer. Derby puts it this way:

18 But *we* all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by [i]the[/i] Lord [i]the[/i] Spirit.

And Tyndale put it that we are looking at the Lord, with 'His face open to us'. In both these (mirrorless) parallels, the point is that [i]we[/i] can look on His face directly, as Moses looked on God's.

Before you say Moses did not 'see' God, take a look at this, and note that the blood had just been shed and the ceremonies performed with it.

Exodus 24
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [i]it[/i] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [i]it[/i] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 [b]And they saw the God of Israel[/b]: and [i]there was[/i] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [i]his[/i] clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also [b]they saw God, and did eat and drink[/b].

God did not withdraw Himself from such a clear view, until after Aaron had made the golden calf. Israel continued to worship it, despite every attempt on God's part to turn their hearts towards Himself, although there have always been those who hear Him (prophets, kings and priests) and some turned to Christ. And yet, God did not make Himself [i]completely[/i] invisible, still appearing in the fiery cloudy pillar many times.

While the glory of the Old Covenant was fading and temporary (we know), it is easy [i]not[/i] to appreciate just what an improvement it represented in government, compared with the outright slavery the Hebrews had endured.

I think we all experience a growing distance in our fellowship with God, if we don't treasure being in His presence above all other treasures.

The other thought I have, regarding the removal of our 'veils' is here:

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [i]did[/i] from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
12 [b]For the word of God [i]is[/i] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart[/b].
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but [u]all things[/u] [i]are[/i] [u]naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we[/u] [i]must give[/i] [u]account[/u].
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [i]our[/i] confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all [i]points[/i] tempted as [i]we are, yet[/i] without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Just as you said, Jeanette, it is His mercy which speaks to us by His piercing word, bringing Him closer, or, urging us to be open with Him.

 2007/5/23 9:00

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada


I appreciated what you wrote. Particularly the thought that it is the mercy of the Lord to speak to us that piercing, penetrating word that draws us closer. As I read this I "saw" that it is only the "sword of the Spirit," the living word of God, that can rend the veils on our hearts.

This, I think, is the same thing Paul said in 2 Cor. 3, that the heart which turns to "the Lord" has the veil taken away. "Now 'the Lord' is that Spirit..." Paul was referring back to Moses, when he went in to speak with the Lord (as you pointed out) "...he took the vail off, until he came out" (Ex. 34.34). Paul is thinking of this verse when he says, "Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." And then he says, "Now 'the Lord' is that Spirit..."

It is the Spirit of the Lord that brings us into immediate contact and relationship with the Lord Himself. The sword of the Spirit, the living word of God, can do what nothing else can do: unveil us, leave us naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, and bring us into that same immediate Presence.

This is either a very fearful thing, or a thing to be desired above all else. Or maybe both. It's so good to read immediately after this verse, "Seeing we have a great high priest..." (Heb. 4.14).

We are in good hands then. Our great High Priest. We can confidently entrust all our inner nakedness to Him, and to the love that covereth all sin.

...About the mirror. I am not much of a Greek scholar, but the word translated "beholding as in a glass" in the KJV is in the Greek one word: "katoptrizomenoi" which, I understand, means reflecting, mirroring. "Katoptron" is, according to Thayer, a mirror.

But as I see it, the thought is not that we look into a mirror, and thereby see the glory of the Lord indirectly, or second hand. Rather, the glory of the Lord is itself the mirror in which we look with open face, and seeing Him, see ourselves. As we really are! (Now, THAT is quite a long-thinking kind of thought. Seeing Him in the mirror of New Covenant glory, we are transfigured into the same image!)


Allan Halton

 2007/5/23 14:38Profile

 Re: Veils

(Jeanette, may I say what a pleasure it is to have a one-word title to a thread! ;-) )

ADisciple said]

...About the mirror. I am not much of a Greek scholar, but the word translated "beholding as in a glass" in the KJV is in the Greek one word: "katoptrizomenoi" which, I understand, means reflecting, mirroring. "Katoptron" is, according to Thayer, a mirror.

But as I see it, the thought is not that we look into a mirror, and thereby see the glory of the Lord indirectly, or second hand. [b]Rather, the glory of the Lord is itself the mirror in which we look with open face, and seeing Him, see ourselves[/b]. As we really are! (Now, THAT is quite a long-thinking kind of thought. Seeing Him in the mirror of New Covenant glory, we are transfigured into the same image!)

Thank you for explaining this.

I would like to tweak the 'and ourselves' to suggest that what we are likely to see of ourselves initially, should drive us to our knees. But, while we do not fear to look at Him and His glory, it should be a transforming experience - despite what we find out about ourselves in the process.

1 Cor 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 2007/5/23 14:58

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada



dorcas wrote:

I would like to tweak the 'and ourselves' to suggest that what we are likely to see of ourselves initially, should drive us to our knees. But, while we do not fear to look at Him and His glory, it should be a transforming experience - despite what we find out about ourselves in the process.

Yes, initially we see ourselves, as the priests of old who looked into the brazen laver filled with water. The brazen laver (which I believe typifies the word of God) reflected, mirrored their faces, but the water was there to wash the uncleanness away.

"And he made the laver of brass, and the foot of it of brass, of the lookingglasses of the women assembling, which assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Ex. 38.8).

(There are those mirrors, again. And, just a thought here, maybe there is more to this, but: help us, Lord, to quit trying to view our vanity in our own mirrors at the door of Your tabernacle; it's hard to let them go, but we surrender our mirrors to You: henceforth to see ourselves not in our own eyes--but as we are in Your eyes-- only in the cleansing laver of Your word.)

(That laver would have been a thing brutal to the conscience to look into, without the water in it! Just as the word of God is, and has no power to cleanse us, apart from the Spirit of God, to wash us "with the washing of WATER of the word" (Eph. 5.26).

...One more thought about mirroring the glory of the Lord with unveiled face. Just taking this thought one step further. We trust our great High Priest, and so, opening our faces (and ourselves) to Him, we draw nigh in full assurance of faith, we look into His glory, which, as a mirror, shows us ourselves, and we confess this; and He shows us Himself, and we confess Him also, and by that Light, New Covenant light, we are transfigured into the image we see.

And then, "we all, with unveiled face, mirroring the glory of the Lord..." We, then, become the mirror of the Glory to one another, and are changed, from glory to glory to glory... And to others, and they are changed.

Just as Moses, who spent time communing with God, and then came down from the mountain; he wist not that the skin of his face shone "while he talked with Him" (Ex. 34.29). And so, then, he ministered, mirrored, that glory to the people. "We ALL..." Can we become that kind of "reflection" to one another? So that others see no longer the old "me," but Jesus unveiled and shining forth from my life? And THEY, in turn, are changed by seeing Him?

This to me is a very challenging thing. I am not in "the ministry," but as a member of the Body of Christ, do I try to "minister" apart from that "glory," that anointing that causes my face to shine with HIS glory, so that people see HIM? Do I, as Moses, quickly exit myself if I feel the glory is fading, till I can commune further with my Lord, and replenish that glory, and minister only out from that? Help us, Lord.


Allan Halton

 2007/5/23 16:26Profile


Thank you all your comments, although its nearly midnight so I can't comment just now.

There was only one reply for such a long time that I'd stopped following ithe thread, and its now nearly at the bottom of the page, so bumping it up, may have time for more tomorrow!

Thankyou, especially for the new thoughts and meditations - it seems to be turning into quite a huge subject! For example you could add the concept of "covering",in the sense of atonement, as in the "mercy seat" on the Ark - which really means "atonement cover".

Just one snippet to add from Songs 1:7, "turn aside" (KJV) means "is veiled". She could not be unveiled in the presence of others, even His friends, only before her Beloved.


Goodnight, God bless you all


 2007/5/24 19:05

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