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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Compliments wrote:

Quote:
Maybe I am not explaining myself right. Let me go to the Word. Consider Daniels prayer, he didn't say "The church has sinned, THEY are in bad shape"
No, what he did say was, "WE have sinned". He included himself because he was apart of Israel.



Three years ago I walked away from a church because I was frustrated with the lack of growth in the people...three years have passed and I have found that I was the pharisee in Luke 18:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The way I see it now, at least for myself, a man that is justified will learn to love by following the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has not taken the lampstand from the church that I am attending then Jesus is still at work in the midst of the congregation.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/21 0:59Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I think the challenge is to feel the urgency of the times without allowing frustration to enter into our words opening the door to the enemy.

James 3:13-17

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

When the people placed the Ark on the Cart and rolled it towards the city a certain man named Uzzah reached up to steady it and was smote dead. Why? Perhaps he had become accustomed to putting his hand on that which was not his to touch? Was he in the habit of putting forth his hand upon it? Was not the ark in his fathers house many years? The ark should have been on the shoulders of the priests, but this man paid the price for trying to steady it when it went to and fro. I think it was his attitude of presumption towards God that got him killed.

I have been in circles where there is such hostility towards the Church that it is almost unreal. I have heard so-called Christians curse towards the church. Some so angry they refuse to darken the door of a church. Many that use the flip term 'institutional' as if they had no sense at all. None of those people are prospering- in fact all I know of are on a downhill slide and their voices are becoming more and more shallow, faint, and irrelevant. As if they have gone too far and are now paying a heavy price tag.

Who here has the wisdom to correct the churches? Who among us walks in the midst of the candlesticks? One opinion is no greater than the next. Everyone has a diagnosis. Everyone seems to have an ax to grind. But what is the Spirit saying to the churches? I would tremble to thrust my counsel into the problems of the church. They are too wonderful for me. Men look on outward appearances. Men darken counsel with words without knowledge. They open their mouthes and instead of illuminating the situation with their words- they add to the darkness (Job 36-39). Information is not revelation.

The first people to get rebuked when God speaks will be the 'rebukers'. Why? They counsel on what they see and hear with their own wit and logic. Job's counselors did not come from the presence of God with their words or they had known what was going on. They looked, assessed and they judged.

Is there not a balm in Gilead? Does God not have a recipe for our generation? Beginning at each local assembly God has a word for them if they would seek Him. God did not judge the whole of the NT Church with the Laodicean tag. He does not spank all to get the right one. There was some even in Sardis that did not soil their garments. And when the Lord speaks, He will state what is being done right as well as what is done wrong. This is how you will know you are hearing the prophetic voice of God. God knows all the works- not just the bad ones. He gives credit where credit is due. For me? It is a fearful thing to declare things about the Church, the Bride- the Lambs wife. Do you talk about your wife like that? Fat, Dumb? You ought to think about these things. We are going to stand before God someday.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/21 1:01Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:

Maybe I am not explaining myself right. Let me go to the Word. Consider Daniels prayer, he didn't say "The church has sinned, THEY are in bad shape"
No, what he did say was, "WE have sinned". He included himself because he was apart of Israel.



This is good. Daniel had a true priestly heart. He was identified with the people, wayward as they were. He stood before God on behalf of the people. You read of the priests that they had no inheritance of their own in Israel. God was their inheritance. So those with a true priestly heart know they are not going anywhere without the people of God.

But the true priest also stands before the people on behalf of God, and must be faithful to "declare unto Jacob his transgression, and unto Israel his sin" (Micah 3.8).

And even this he does in a spirit not of accusation, but intercession. This is the one thing that tells on us. There's lots of people who love nothing better than exposing the nakedness of the erring Church. (Check out the media if you want a dose of this.) But then there are those who grieve over her nakedness and feel deeply within their own heart her shame. And even their "criticism" of her is done in a Spirit of intercession.

As Elijah, in Paul's words: "Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel..." (Rom. 11.2).

You'd think it should read, "maketh accusation to God against Israel." They had "killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars..." and worshipped Baal.... But Elijah's criticism of all this is done in a spirit of intercession. He refuses to have anything whatsoever to do with the ministry of the Accuser of the brethren. Even though he has some very critical things from the mouth of God to say to the people.

Let us do the same. What Spirit are we in? Is it accusation, or intercession? We can still cry against the evils of the Church in our day. Let it be in intercession. We can be faithful as watchmen to sound the trumpet of alarm: the enemy is already inside the gates! Let all we do be not just gleeful tearing down, but something we are broken about, weeping about, and hoping to see a building up as a result of it all. (As God commissioned Jeremiah: He did tell him he was to go and root out, and pull down, and destroy, and thrown down... But with what objective in mind? After that, "to build, and to plant" (Jer. 1.10).

...So, I believe that as we more and more seek to abide in the priestly heart of Jesus concerning all these things, this will ensure that no innocent brothers and sisters are ever hit by "friendly fire" that was aimed at The Enemy.

...And maybe this is what Compliments has been concerned about. I hope we all are. For, yes, it's true, as he says: many have left churches (whether recognized as denominational or otherwise) that have been a grief to their hearts, and are seeking truth. That's us, isn't it? Let's look after one another.

AD



_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/21 1:33Profile









 Re:

I have no cause to protect. My only cause is Jesus. I'm still not clear what the intent of the original post is, even with clarification... so if I missed the target, I did not mean to.

It is very true that we must look at ourselves first before we can speak against the sins of the church. The ol' "mote in the eye syndrome". I say what I say on this forum without apology (unless I move in the flesh, which I do from time to time), and I know in my heart my desire to be united with strong people of faith. However, as I look around I see very few. Not that I am any great man of God... I'm probably the weakest Christian here. But I want to be in a circle of strong believers, people who are totally sold out to God, and it's hard to find that anymore.

Thats what attracts me to this forum. There are people like that here... but in real life, where are they?

Where are the great saints of God we hear about from 60 - 70 yrs ago? Men who would spend days in prayer. Men who sacrificed all for God? Now whats considered sacrificing is missing an episode of "Survivor"... and with Tivo, you dont need to worry about that anymore, either.

I wish I could express my heart better. I can pretty well express my mind, but I have a hard time getting my heart, my spirit out in words. But if y'all could in some way catch a glimpse of my heart... I think y'all would understand what I am saying.

Krispy

 2007/5/21 8:31
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Krispy: I wish I could express my heart better. I can pretty well express my mind, but I have a hard time getting my heart, my spirit out in words. But if y'all could in some way catch a glimpse of my heart... I think y'all would understand what I am saying.



I think many of us share in the grief of the many issues that are so evident before us. It is so easy to either get angry or dispair. I agree also very much with the 'beam' in our eye thing also. I received an e-mail from a brother who is wrestling with all these issues also. I don't feel the liberty to share the whole content here, but it is indicitive of how so many are trying to wreckon with everything going on.

He says that anger and courage are great motivators. While this is true, I think we cannot allow ourselves to be motivated by anger to speak to the Church. Courage will help us act also. But I think that when we speak of these things what we need is unction and boldness which are not rooted in human emotion, but in the power of God. Steven stood up with a scathing message to the Jews- but it was preached in love. It came off as harsh- but the evidence was in his love for the people.

Paul said that he wished himself accursed from Christ if it would save the Jews. A heart such as this could speak to it's generation as the realization that only God can change men would foster a seeking out of answers before the Lord. It would put intensity in prayer.

What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions. This is not to say that we don't have a zeal for Christ as we should have. But, and I will speak for myself here, have at times confused [i]anger[/i] for [i]unction[/i]. God wanted to do with a still small voice what I tried to do with a [u]rod[/u]. Using inflamitory statements is a fire that is contageous. Soon the gatekeepers are angry and shut you down. The message we need for our times will be tough enough to swallow even if it is a 'pure' word from God. By all means if it is God saying it- we ought to say it. But I worry that we run the risk of thrashing the people with our own feelings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/21 8:57Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re: Stop it!!

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
The believers that I know of are not what we are depicting. The ones that I know have stopped going to a local assembly because they don't see the truth preached there anymore, they have been knocked down, kicked about. Most have been rejected by the Church system.



So, TRUE. I know of many believers who left their local assembly, as well. I find it interesting that many churches are not a "hospital" anymore. They have become part of the "battlefield." There are so many wounded in the church that stay wounded. There are also so many that leave the church, wounded by the church.


Quote:

I see a people that are broken, hurting, perishing for a lack of knowledge. And yet we can't say anything good about ourselves.



I think you're right, here, and I think that is why we can't say much good about ourselves. "The Church" is suppose to be a place, and a people, of freedom, joy, deliverance, healing, growth, maturity, love, and living a disciplined life, etc. Generally speaking I think the church has basically become quite the opposite.


Quote:

When we say that the church is in bad shape, do we not hear ourselves, we are saying that we are in bad shape.



I'll admit that even myself has been in "bad shape." I, myself, need to have a well disciplined life. It's so true that we are "The Information Age" - we want to know everything about everything. Our minds (My mind) get/s so distracted by what this world has to offer, that it ends more "important" then our/my spriritual walk, and spiritual growth. And then to top it all off - not only do I/we put a strain on my/our spiritual growth, but I/we have become too weak and selfish to help the "other" person.

But look at what the Bible says about this Church that the LORD has bought.
Quote:
Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

[b]I think these are some great verses. We certianly don't act like we are members of His body, flesh, and bones.[/b]


Quote:
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


[b]I think much of the church today is an unapologetic, unrepentant, selfish, self-sustained, unregretful, dirty, and filthy bride who loves the "idea" of being graphed into the body, who can do what they want by grace and not give anything of the world up.[/b]

Are we the "body of Christ?" Or have most Christians assembled their own Christ version? Have most Christians not accepted Christ version 1, and replaced Him with version 1.1, and by now, version 4006.3[CHRIST version 4006.3 - Description: Newly upgraded. What's great about this version is He can't do much! He's quite lazy, actually! You're still required, as your duty to play with him and keep him somewhat happy, but he really doesn't listen to you when you talk to him, and quite frankly, he doesn't talk back. However, he is good for wealth and your popularity across the world, his "barbie" is also the newly updated filthy prostitute (he didn't care much for a white spotless bride. He realized it was all a fairytale, so he decided to settle! Phew!) oh, and he of course still offers the 'Get Out Of Hell Free By Grace' card!) GET YOURS TODAY]
Quote:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Yeah, see I think the latest "version" of Peter is quicksand, and as far as hell not prevailing against it, well, I think the new Peter has engulfed hell and accepted it. The new Peter has become interested in what hell has to offer (as far as living of this world), and has decided to openly accept and embrace some of it, but still has his foot in the gate of heaven. The new Peter has accepted that Satan is Satan. He is going to do what he does, and Satan can be very overpowering and overbearing on a regular basis. Sometimes, Peter has to just role with the punches and accept that Satan is going to win many battles.

This is why the battle MUST be fought. Does it put a damper on things to know that much of the church is screwed up? Sure, but it is reality, and something MUST be done about it. The failing church does need to have something said about it. Are there some good churches? Sure. No doubt, but I would dare say that those churches might make up a fingernail of the rest of the body!

**newly edited, as I was in a rush this morning!**

 2007/5/21 9:36Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2768
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Robert wrote: What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions.



This is a very good illustration. Moses lost patience with the people, he lost hope for them; we must be careful not to fall into the same trap.

[i]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, [b]Hear now, ye rebels[/b]; must we fetch you water out of this rock?[/i] (Num 20:10)

In these words from Moses we see that hope had died. To him they were no longer God’s people, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and therefore infinitely precious. Instead he saw them now as a band of rebels, he forgot the price of their redemption and therefore considered them worthless and hopeless. We must never forget that the "weak brother" is also the brother for whom Christ died, and he is not a hopeless case.

For Moses it had become a tedious duty to lead the people to the rock and see them satisfied. This is a particular danger for leaders or those who think they have progressed spiritually to some lofty place.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/21 9:50Profile









 Re:

Krispy said:

Quote:
I say what I say on this forum without apology

Steven, there is no reason why you should apologize, all that you have said is true, I encourage you to continue.

My main point was this, When we say or when we preach that the Church is sick, are we not saying that 'we' the speaker is sick too? Because 'we' too are apart of the Church.

I say this because many of us say it without even thinking about it, that when we point the finger at the body of Christ in the general sense as sick, and needs to repent, are we not seperating ourselves from the rest of the body as not being sick?

Christ was the only one that could do this, because He was without sin. He did not need a High Priest for His sins, He was the High Priest for our sins, thus we still need a High Priest who continually forgives of our sin IF we do sin.

I would have fellowship with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ and I would become grieved when they would continually say, "The problem with the Church is....", and that would go on and on. So I say, when we say that the problem with the Church is such and such, are 'we' who are declaring that not saying that 'we' have the same problem because 'we' are of the body of Christ too?

Whew, I hope that makes more sense.

God Bless You Krispy

 2007/5/21 10:13









 Re:

Greg wrote:

Quote:
If the church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher

I enjoyed reading that my Brother, so true.

The Charismatic movement with the infiltration of the Catholic Church into the protestant Churches that 'we' have attended and heard mostly all our lives have done very little for the cause of Christ. Alot of noise, alot of shouting, producing alot of nothing. When we preach the true word of God, true heart felt repentance will be the results that when we leave those alters we are truly changed never to return to that mess we left behind.

I remember an old time pentacostal preacher once said,
Quote:
When I got the holy Ghost, I knew that I had power to overcome lust

 2007/5/21 10:26
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
Robert wrote: What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions.



This is a very good illustration. Moses lost patience with the people, he lost hope for them; we must be careful not to fall into the same trap.

[i]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, [b]Hear now, ye rebels[/b]; must we fetch you water out of this rock?[/i] (Num 20:10)

In these words from Moses we see that hope had died. To him they were no longer God’s people, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and therefore infinitely precious. Instead he saw them now as a band of rebels, he forgot the price of their redemption and therefore considered them worthless and hopeless. We must never forget that the "weak brother" is also the brother for whom Christ died, and he is not a hopeless case.

For Moses it had become a tedious duty to lead the people to the rock and see them satisfied. This is a particular danger for leaders or those who think they have progressed spiritually to some lofty place.

In Christ,

Ron



I agree. This is a great illustration. Anger is certianly NOT the way to handle these such things. Excellent word Robert.

 2007/5/21 11:36Profile





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