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 2 questions for Calvinist

I've been thinking a lot lately on Calvinism and trying to understand it. I have two question I would like to ask and understand how they work with that doctrine:

1. Isaiah 66:4
So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.”

Here God is passing Judgment because people will not answer Him when He called. So God gives them delusions. Now if God has predetermined that they do not hear or repent why is He angry?

2. I have two verses for this question:

I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Why does God stretch out His hands to a people He knows will not chose Him because He won't let them chose Him? And why does Jesus say He wants to gather these Jew to HIm if He's purposed not to do so? Is this double talk? How does this make sense?

 2007/5/18 23:14

 Re: 2 questions for Calvinist

Why does God stretch out His hands to a people He knows will not chose Him because He won't let them chose Him?

God pleads with sinners because God hates evil. God does not rejoice if they continue in their rebellion and murder. God is grieved over their sin. God is angry with them everyday.
"...when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts..."[Mk 3:5] "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."[Psa 7:11]

God and His children weep over their pride.

"Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law." [Psa 119:136]

"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it," [Lk 19:41]

"But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive."[Jer 13:17]

We ought to follow this example of godly sorrow.
If I serve and love God alone and thus I have a desire for my neighbor to serve and love God alone...

1. I will plead with him to repent and believe the gospel. [because God's holy name and His holy gospel is worthy to be exalted in my life and my conversation with men. I want every one to live holy and pure for Jesus.]

2. I will weep over his sins against God. [because I'm grieved at sin and I hate it by God's grace]

3. I will do good to him. [because I love my neighbor as myself. If I love God, I will have a consuming desire for all men to love and serve God alone.]

We see this in Paul's heart. [the new heart which was given to him from God.]

"And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds." [Act 26:29]

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"[Rom 9:1-3]

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" [Col 1:28]

God pleads with the wicked because He does not take pleaure in their death nor their agape love of sin.

"Yet thou sayest, Because I am innocent, surely his anger shall turn from me. Behold, I will plead with thee, because thou sayest, I have not sinned."[Jer 2:35]

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"[Eze 33:11]

God pleads with all flesh.

"A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD."[Jer 25:31]

Man does not will to come to God.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."[Jn 5:40]

Those who seek not the honor that comes from God only... cannot believe.

"How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?"[Jn 5:44]

There is none that seeks after God.

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."[Rom 3:11]

No man recieves our Lord's testimony.

"And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony."

Man seeks to kill God by not keeping His Word.

" seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."[Jn 8:37]

Man goes about to kill God by not keeping His Law.

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"[Jn 7:19]

Men do not will to be born again, nor are they born again as a result of their will.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."[Jn 5:40]

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [Jn 1:13]

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."[Rom 9:16]

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."[Php 2:13]

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."[Jas 1:18]

Only those that are of God hear our Lord's words.

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."[Jn 8:47]

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." [Jn 6:65]

"Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."[1Jn 1:11]

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."[Rom 1:12]

Only our Lord's sheep believe Him.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."[Jn 10:26]

If men believe God or even will to come to Him, it is because of God's mercy of regeneration upon that individual.

"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name."[Isa 65:1]

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."[1Jn 5:1]

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"[Tts 3:3-5]

God bless you.

 2007/5/19 1:49


P.S. I tried to keep it full of scripture and less of my reasoning, because what the Word of God says is where your faith should rest. I don't know John Calvin and I don't know enough about him to tag his name on my doctrinal stance. I call it Paulism or Johnism. I don't get my doctrine from Calvin. Read Isaiah, Romans, or John. If you want to study the doctrines of Grace and make a judgment based on studying the scriptures... I would suggest Isaiah, the gospel of John and Romans for a start.

God bless you.

 2007/5/19 2:13


anyone else?

 2007/5/19 22:40

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


No man would, will or can choose God. Adam did not and all from Adam did not and will not, unless in God's mercy and Love He; Ephesians 1:2-5 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Calvinism is just an excuse for man to use anything he can to make God wrong. God is God and man can do nothing about it. Praise God.

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

There is Judgement for not listing to the Creator of all including all man kind.
Only then will God harden the heart that is already harden and would never choose God.
Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

Then in His mercy He Chose Christ to die for all that would believe and none would, but as Some do choose and some will be saved, so Jerusalem also, even in His wrath He has promised Christ before the foundation of the world.

Zec 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Don't blame Calvin for the delima that man is in, but praise God that any should be in Christ and live in the Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/5/20 2:05Profile

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