| Poster | Thread | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
I can't find any explanation, can you direct me to one on the web? or provide it here?
A Google search using the names Salathiel and Zorobabel might be a good place to start.
Quote:
Regarding Matt 6:6 if Jesus had said we should stand before others and pray long and loud to show our faith, would you do so? Wouldn't this stand out as inconsistent with the rest of His word?
Why discuss what was not said? Lets stick to what He did say. How are Jesus' words in Matt 6:6 inconsistent with public prayer? It seems clear the lesson in Matt 6 was dealing with the motives behind praying, not with whom we do or don't pray.
Obviously Jesus himself prayed with His disciples because they asked Him to teach them how to pray;
Luke 11:1 [i]And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.[/i]
Obviously Jesus was praying before them and they were so astonished with His prayer that they asked Him to teach them. It must have been awesome to listen to Jesus pray!
In Christ,
Ron
_________________
Ron Halverson
|
|  2004/4/8 13:56 | Profile |
| | Re: public prayer | |
The gist of Matt 6 is that we should not make charitable contributions or pray for the purpose of being seen doing so by others. These things are to be done in secret, lest we become or appear proud. Moreover, prayer and good deeds are private matters, between an individual and God. Common prayer and things like the Nicene Creed, repetitively spoken aloud in church services, numb the spirit and encourage stifling conformism. (They also tend to displace the vital role that personal prayer plays in the spiritual life. one who has been to Church and participated, albeit rotely, in prayer may not be as inclined to do so personally, in private.)
Luke 11:1 does not say that Jesus was praying aloud. It does not say they even witnessed Him praying, just that they knew He was doing so at a "certain place". Thereafter, Jesus teaches them the Lord's prayer, but does so as instruction, as requested. No where does Jesus declare support for public prayer, and clearly He speaks against praying in front of others, and thus it is a suspect practice.)
(Personal note: I grew up in the evangelical Lutheran Church and was confirmed in high school. Nothing could have been more dispiriting than going to services and being directed to stand, sit, say this, pray that, believe this, sing now, etc. I had questions, and when I asked them, I was told that they would not be answered because I was not allowed to ask them in the first place. I was to believe as instructed, without question or doubt. Hell awaited anyone who even questioned Church dogma, yet good works were clearly lacking from the agenda of the Church. But you know what, I could read, think and reason myself and what I discovered was that ceremony, interpersonal relationships, church functions, etc. were far more important to the ministers and congregants than charity, love, and peace. Everyone was doing what they wanted and relying on "saving grace" and blood washing away our sins. It was starkly clear to me as a teenager what a load of BS this whole thing was. We were living fat and happy and in Ethiopia, for example, people were starving to death. Did things like this get discussed or did the ministers give up their pay to feed people or work to right ANY kind of injustice in the world. NO. They supported the Vietnam war, complained about Godless communists and lazy welfare recipients, ate their way to obesity, and everything was oh so cozy.)
|
| | 2004/4/8 14:41 | | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: public prayer | | Quote:
Common prayer and things like the Nicene Creed, repetitively spoken aloud in church services, numb the spirit and encourage stifling conformism. (They also tend to displace the vital role that personal prayer plays in the spiritual life. one who has been to Church and participated, albeit rotely, in prayer may not be as inclined to do so personally, in private.)
Clearly prayer can be offered with improper motives both in the closet and in public. I would agree that there are some potential pitfalls in public prayer and there have been many abuses of Jesus' teaching on prayer in Matt 6, but there is also tremendous value in a people praying together in the unity of the Spirit.
Quote:
Luke 11:1 does not say that Jesus was praying aloud. It does not say they even witnessed Him praying, just that they knew He was doing so at a "certain place".
I feel it is most probable that they were together in prayer. As Jews, the disciples would have been intimately familiar with prayer but when they heard Jesus pray they heard something very different than what they were used to. It must have stirred them deeply. You will notice that it isn't recorded anywhere that they asked Jesus how to do miracles or how to preach, no, they asked Him how to pray.
Quote:
No where does Jesus declare support for public prayer, and clearly He speaks against praying in front of others, and thus it is a suspect practice.)
And no where does he say anything against public prayer except that it should not be offered with the wrong motives, or to use an OT term, no "strange fire".
In Christ,
Ron
_________________
Ron Halverson
|
| | 2004/4/8 16:00 | Profile |
| | Re: Salathiel and Zorobabel | | Ron,
I did as you suggested and found many explanations, but every one of them is different. The simplest explanation is that these were common names, so they occured in each geneology. But there were several other much more complicated explanations that, frankly, I didn't understand very well. But it is notable that there was no consistent explanation for this. What is your point of view?
Jake |
| | 2004/4/8 16:41 | | KeithLaMothe
Member
Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354
| | Re: | | Quote:
Nothing could have been more dispiriting than going to services and being directed to stand, sit, say this, pray that, believe this, sing now, etc. I had questions, and when I asked them, I was told that they would not be answered because I was not allowed to ask them in the first place. I was to believe as instructed, without question or doubt. Hell awaited anyone who even questioned Church dogma,
My mother is/was Lutheran (Missouri synod) and, though she apparently wasn't stifled (she probably didn't ask many questions), she was very put off by the mistreatment of a sick girl in her neighborhood, and apparently her pastor would say the mistreatment was wrong but wouldn't stand against it.
One would think she would have blamed the church, and not the Bible, but she didn't make a very clear distinction between them. She was (at least until recently) fairly averse to treating the Bible as inerrant. Since I've talked with her at length on the matter, pointing out that Scripture condemns, rather than supports the sort of hypocrisy she saw, I think she doesn't object anymore.
The point: the fact that some (probably most) people who claim to be following the Bible are hypocritical abominations does not necessarily reflect upon the Bible itself. It is grounds for investigation, but it is not a clear-cut objection to the inerrancy of Scripture. Particularly when it can be easily shown that such hypocrisy is condemned by the very same Scripture that the hypocrites claim as support.
Quote:
yet good works were clearly lacking from the agenda of the Church. But you know what, I could read, think and reason myself and what I discovered was that ceremony, interpersonal relationships, church functions, etc. were far more important to the ministers and congregants than charity, love, and peace.
If this is so (and I don't doubt it), they were living in sin. Perhaps they put on a show (and perhaps even believed it themselves) of righteousness, but they were wicked hell-deserving sinners.
Quote:
Everyone was doing what they wanted and relying on "saving grace" and blood washing away our sins.
Oh how the Gospel has been twisted and exchanged for a license to lasciviousness. Without even getting into Eternal/Conditional security, I'm fairly sure than anyone who can fornicate, get drunk, backstab, wilfully refuse to help those in need when capable of helping, or otherwise flagrantly rebel against the revealed will of God... they're not saved, they're not Christians, I'm fairly certain they never were.
Perhaps I'm coming off as excessively judgmental here, and I'd like to mention that I would still do whatever I could to help even hypocrites insofar as the Lord willed (including bringing their error to their attention), but the Lord is FURIOUS with hypocrites and it's rubbing off on me.
But the problem isn't the Bible.
The problem is people not taking the Bible seriously. If you'd like I could give you a whole string of verses that, if they took it seriously, would probably leave those kinds of hypocrites on the floor. Not because of me or anything about me, but by the truth and power of God's Word. They probably wouldn't take it seriously, though.
If you toss out the authority of Scripture (not that you're conciously doing it, but even ONE error in the Bible really trashes things), people like that can even more easily explain away their evil and call it holy.
I think I'm going to calm down now, if the Lord lets me :)
God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus,
-Keith |
| | 2004/4/8 23:48 | Profile |
|
