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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The husband of one wife

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Forrest
I really don't think that it is appropriate to try to respond to a pastoral need in a public context, so I am not going to be part of this particular exercise. If others feel differently they must act as they see fit.

It is really is of no importance 'what people think'. What is important is that you discern the will of God for your own life and carry it through. Find some Christian friends with whom you can pray. God will find a way of making his will known to you if you really want it. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin...


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/18 17:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Can you expand on that a little? What kind of widow would not have a dead spouse?


right ;-) my fault.

Quote:
Obviously adultery warrants a person to divorce, but "re-marry"?

This will get us into the territory of divorce and remarriage. If divorce disolves a marriage does that not mean that the marriage no longer exists? In the Old Testament, divorce certainly implied freedom to remarry.


There are some circles of christians that will state that you cannot re-marry until the other party is "dead" taking the teaching from Romans 7 which is a allegory, etc.

Quote:
I think is part of the same issue. What does divorce do if it doesn't dissolve the marriage? I am not condoning promiscuity and don't want to weaken the Christian testimony but I also want to be faithful to scripture. If the behaviour of the post apostolic church is consistent with the revelation of the scripture I am very ready to hear what they have to say. Their nearness to those times and mindsets should have put them in a good position to get things right. However, some clearly moved to positions which have no justification in the scripture; Ignatius of Antioch being a clear example.

I know that the post apostolic period moved toward greater asceticism and that restoring the 'penitent' became an issue which, in some ways, continues to our own day. I raised this oddity regarding 'wife of one husband' because I think it is important to realise that better and wiser men than ourselves have struggled with these issues and come to different conclusions.


Yes. Some circles will be strong on this and state that the person is a "adulterer" that re-marries and commits adultery before God. That is a bold statement and quite strong. I am sure no person would intend to do that willingly so is this a far-fetched interpretation of scripture or does it give ample warning etc. It does seem in the Old Testament there is credence for re-marrying.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/5/18 18:18Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Jesus said:

Quote:

Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? [6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. [7] They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mark 10:11-12
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. [12] And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

John 8:2-11
And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. [3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, [4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. [9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

These are all the teachings of Jesus on the matter of divorce and remarriage. His word is final on the matter which we see in His words to the woman brought to Him.
“Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” That means no more, no matter what or how you got into the situation of committing adultery, go away from it and do not do it any more.

What do we tell a homosexual who comes to Jesus Christ, go ahead and continue in your sin since you were in it before you came to Christ? God forbid, No, we would never say such a thing.
We need to call sin, sin and stop making excuses for people to continue in it.
It sounds hard but we did not make the command, Jesus did and it has not changed since He made this statement, no matter what our situation may be:

Mark 10:11-12
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. [12] And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Sorry, but there are no excuses for not plainly declaring the Word of the Lord.

Yes, that which is not of faith is sin, but faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/5/18 19:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? [6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. [7] They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, [b]except it be for fornication[/b], and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.It is this phrase, interpreted differently by different godly men which is still the area of controversy.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/19 0:49Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
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 Re: Divorce & Remarriage

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Forrest
I really don't think that it is appropriate to try to respond to a pastoral need in a public context, so I am not going to be part of this particular exercise. If others feel differently they must act as they see fit.

It is really is of no importance 'what people think'. What is important is that you discern the will of God for your own life and carry it through. Find some Christian friends with whom you can pray. God will find a way of making his will known to you if you really want it. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin...




Dear my brother,

I thank you for your concern for me, but I am not asking in a pastoral sense.

I am asking, under a specific set of variables, what you believe the scriptures say, and I don't want you to tiptoe around the matter simply because the variables in the equation happen to be true for me.

They are true for many people, male and female, and frankly, the sex is irrelevant.

Under the hypothetical, mine is a clear case of divorce after adultery. Since I live in a no fault state in regards to divorce, I couldn't stop my ex-husband from divorcing me, even had I wanted to.

I have very little feeling about the matter from a personal standpoint. I am just as willing to re-marry a good Christian man as I am to remain unmarried, which ever the Lord chooses for me.

Nor do I care for what other's will think of me. I only care about what God thinks of me.

But I am interested in the subject from a scriptural basis because it is pertinent, and a real problem for many in the world we live in.

As far as I see the scriptures, I am as free to re-marry scripturally, since the adultery was not mine. Under what Jesus said, the only two reason's He could see for a valid divorce, rather than the hardness of our hearts, was adultery, and being married to a non-Christian who would not permit Christianity in the household.

Additional detail. My ex-husband is a pagan, and although he took Christian vows, they obviously meant nothing to him. In addition, he would definately not have like my growing ever closer to Jesus, and putting him second.

At this point, I am even wondering if my second marriage, following an early widowhood, was even valid in the Christian sense. Yes, by the laws of California I was married, and divorced from my 2nd husband. The 1st husband no longer counted becasued he was dead.

I married a pagan, and as soon as the marriage became inconvenient to him, he dispensed with the marriage.

Now, I meant my vows, and planned to stand by them. I waited until he wished to re-marry, and then didn't fight the divorce, since I had no legal basis to do so. I was sorry to have the marriage end. I have become glad that the interim period of time allowed me time to grow closer to God. And enough time has passed that other than the good memories from the marriage, I shrug my shoulders at the rest, and pray for the pair of them that they might be touched by the Holy Spirit, and join the rest of us as children of God.

I know the scriptures that exempt me from being an adulturer if I remarry as taken from Jesus' mouth.

[color=993300]Matthew 5:31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.[/color]

Are there other scriptures that dispute, or qualify these?

Blessings,

Forrest



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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/19 7:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
UniqueWebRev on 2007/5/18 22:46:06
Under these circumstances, and only these circumstances as stated, am I free to remarry, and remain within the congregation without accusation and dispute?


UniqueWebRev on 2007/5/19 12:47:35
Nor do I care for what other's will think of me. I only care about what God thinks of me.



I am not sure which of these we are working under. Nothing that is said here is going to alter the possibilities of 'remaining within the congregation without accusation and dispute'. That can only be worked out in your congregation. I think we have rerun the 'divorce and marriage' theme so many times here on SI that I doubt that I can add anything to what has already been said.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/19 10:52Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Putteth away.

As was mentioned earlier, there has been much written here on this in different postings, but wanted to just state I applaud all of you for the candor and handling this with such charity thus far.

It seems highly unlikely that this has not been covered prior but I am wondering out loud if there is a particular emphasis here in the Lords words;

Mark 10:11-12
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall [b]put away[/b] his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. [12] And if a woman shall [b]put away[/b] her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Excluding the exclusion momentarily ('except for' ...) would the emphasis on the one doing the '[i]putting away[/i]' be ... where the adultery would come into play? Being that this would amount to the nullifier of the covenant, the 'guilty party' for basically no good reason divorcing his or her spouse, for this same person to then go and remarry afterwords ...

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

To bring back in the 'exception' clause seems to put the onus back on the responsible party. The 'causer' if you will.



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Mike Balog

 2007/5/20 21:01Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Brother Mike asked:

Quote:
Excluding the exclusion momentarily ('except for' ...) would the emphasis on the one doing the 'putting away' be ... where the adultery would come into play? Being that this would amount to the nullifier of the covenant, the 'guilty party' for basically no good reason divorcing his or her spouse, for this same person to then go and remarry afterwords ...



The answer would be yes to this question.
Lets use the exclusion rule the ('execept for'...) would it be justified in light of this statement by Jesus?

Matthew 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/5/20 21:38Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Of one ...

Quote:
would it be justified in light of this statement by Jesus?



Indeed, this does not simplify matters, am not sure I would even use the word 'justify'. It was the Lord Himself who gave the exclusion.

There are far too many passages throughout scripture that would be equivelant to that which we have in our vows;

[i]For better or for worse[/i]

There is the hardness of the heart that Jesus spoke of and as I mused on this, again the more pressing matter of adultery itself, apart from this;

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The percentages of inward 'divorce' that have occured would move that 50% figure up expotentialy.

If anything would be only wondering at the prospect of the 'innocent' or wronged party being implicit in an adultery that he or she as no control over. It seems to square that these would be free and have no bidding obligation to what he stated.


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Mike Balog

 2007/5/20 21:55Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Of one ...

Isn't the very specifics that should make it plain?

For anyone in any corporate congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ, divorcing someone for adultery was okay with Jesus.

I was divorced against my will by the adulturer.

Am I free to remarry according to scripture, and if not, please state more than Mark's opinion when we have Jesus's statement.

Or does everyone agree, if the case is clear, perfect, proven without a doubt, and confessed into the bargain?

I am not asking your permission. I am asking what the scriptures say.

And if you cannot agree, why can't you, when Jesus was so clear about it?

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/21 3:34Profile





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