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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.




Oddly, Christian brought up in his first sentence of what he quoted what I see as the eternal answer to OSAS.

hmmhmm wrote:
[u][i][b][color=0066FF]Rev 3:5 He that overcometh,[/u] the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.[/color][/b][/i]


To those brought up in the doctrine of OSAS, their complacency is frightening. I have friends, genuine, forward walking Christians, who still believe that OSAS is enough for those who turn their back on Jesus, and walk away.

I did it myself in my young years, but I knew next to nothing, and Jesus held on tightly to me, until I could have knowledge, and eventually decide to walk by that knowledge. That is not OSAS, but Christ's mercy and grace.

Do we enter in here to the concept of Prevenient Grace, where God knows who will be saved, and will interfere to a degree to make sure those He knows about are saved will stay saved? Or is it merely Jesus's mercy to take the ignorant and weak, and strengthen them, and hold them closely, even while they sin egregiously against Him?

It is plain that one can have faith, and give it up. That's in Jesus's parable of the sower and the seeds.

[color=993300]Matthew 13
1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
---
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

But if we at SI who are all presumably walking forward in grace, seeking to persevere, to bring forth fruit for the kingdom, can have so many views, and none have come to a concensus even on the exact scriptures that prove one side or the other, I am not surprised to find many thousands who believe OSAS, and do nothing in their initial belief but that belief is enough, and they can rest on their laurels.

Can we even find and agree on the definitive, unquestionable, proof that OSAS is not true, because we must walk forward in grace, and persevere unto the end?

To revive our churches, we must know for sure, examining the scriptures until all are convinced.
And if all cannot be convinced, then something is dreadfully wrong, and I refuse to believe it is the Bible.

I thank you for all your opinions, but in this matter, proof is required, and acceptable proof.

Oh, I know there are some who will not accept even the scriptures as evidence, but I would like to see Krispy's statement, and other's, backed by the scriptures.

I am not a OSAS person, but many I know are, and I fear for them. And so should we all.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/15 17:08Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1901


 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Hi Forrest,
This thread has grown so quickly It nearly passed me by but the amount of replies does prove what I was saying.That opinion including expert opinion is divided on this issue.It is not cut and dried the arguement for "once saved always saved" against the "you can loose your salvation".If grace is so easily lost we have a very small hearted God which is not the case.It goes back to the works arguement,not by works least any man boast.
The other bogus debate is that if you believe you can't loose you're salvation you can do anything and get away with it.Not the case,my sin has consequences in this life and the next.The people who believes that you cant loose salvation are just as motivated as those who believe they can.
After saying all that I didnt say you couldnt loose you're salvation,I said the debate to or for is not as straight forward as was presented.If you listen to the preachers on salvation on sermonindex they are divided as well.
I dont believe in daisy christianity he loves me,he loves me not,he loves me,i'm saved,i'm not,i'm saved,i'm not.It has to be harder to loose it than that!
Rgds staff

 2007/5/15 18:04Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Actually I agree - It cannot anything quirky...God is too stable.

And I know from experience how long Jesus sticks in with you.

What troubles me is not 'Grace saves you' alone, for I believe that. It's just that if you turn away from God, as I have seen many do, assuming they are still covered by grace, you could end up in hell.

I wish people would talk OSAS on this point alone.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/15 21:52Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
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 Re:

...A bit of personal testimony here. I have come through times in my walk with God when it was a matter of life and death to lean hard on the truth that He had chosen me before the foundation of the world, that He had started a good work in me, and would be faithful to complete it, for I was one of His elect, chosen unto salvation (2 Thes. 2.13). But Lord, I've blown it... No, He said: I am faithful: I will chasten you, I will work all things together for good, and I will have the desire of My heart. My Salvation will be glorified in your life.

Then again, I've been in times when I heard the clear admonition of the Spirit warning me about my complacency: "Give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (2 Pt. 1.10).

Now what would I do? Talk back to the Spirit and say, Don't you remember telling me awhile ago, Lord, that nothing was ever going to pluck me from your hand? So what's the big deal?

...So I have learned to quit trying to line up truth against truth. You mean I'm a compromiser? No. I frankly confess this whole matter is bigger than my own understanding. Honestly, yes, it is. And so I humble myself before my Lord, and seek to walk in the Living Truth as I hear His Voice. He's the one with His hand on the handle, not me. He knows what I need in my seasons, and is faithful to minister it to me according to His own wisdom and intent foresight.

...I remember years ago reading something Tozer wrote: that truth is a two-winged bird. It needs both wings to fly. Otherwise it just spirals around and down to the ground. And that's what this issue is: not two sides, one true, the other false; but two sides of One Truth before which we need to bow and worship, not try to figure out.

AD




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Allan Halton

 2007/5/15 22:40Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Who is the brethern he is talking to?



Quote:
I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."



I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.


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TJ

 2007/5/15 23:10Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Who is the brethern he is talking to?



Quote:
I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."



I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.



Frankly TJ, I don't know who answered your original post about James 5:19-20, but the whole of the matter is laid out here:

[color=993300]James 5:10. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13. Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20. Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/color]

The quote is to the brethern at the Temple in Jerusalem, where James almost always was, and was about bringing a Jew from the side of the Law into the belief of Grace.

The reason that James survived at all in Jerusalem is that he did not abate one iota from the Law in practice, but taught that the works of the law should flow from Faith in Salvation through Grace, for after all, the Law was not a failsafe situation, and Jesus is.

Hope I explained enough, considering I looked only at the scriptures.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/15 23:35Profile
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Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Hope I explained enough



Thanks...you did.


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TJ

 2007/5/15 23:42Profile
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, if one is born from aboveand beengiven zoe life then he is gods child; chosen by God and gifted by God and saved by God. if one enters by any other gate then Jesus and His finished work;prompted by the Holy Spirit(chosen)he has no salvation. many are called and few are chosen. jimp

 2007/5/16 6:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I think I may often coming across this way. A lot of what I write is really thinking aloud, in the same way I would in an informal discussion. I try to be careful in preceding conjectures with "I think", etc. The remainder are areas where I am totally convinced of my viewpoint and disagree with respect.



Believe me, brother, I wear everything on my sleeve. I understand exactly what you'r saying!

Krispy

 2007/5/16 7:11
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh....





1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


we must overcome the world...

how do we do that?

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that [b]overcometh[/b] will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

here is also something to overcome....

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, [b]because thou hast left thy first love[/b].
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, [b]and repent[/b], and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

seems to me we must [b]overcome[/b] lukewarmnes...



and here also it speaks of overcoming...
false doctrines and prophets and holding fast and no matter what stick to the faith


Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 [b]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee[/b], because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that [b]overcometh[/b], and [b]keepeth my works unto the end[/b], to him will I give power over the nations:




so in my own words , we must overcome.... overcome the world the flesh the devil....

lets be overcomer's :-) i know Zac Poonen had a excellent teaching on this overcoming... just cant remember what it was called?

EDIT:
here is another verse i found that is just wonderful and full of glory and hope!

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.



anyway this is just my thoughts

God bless you all

Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/5/16 8:02Profile





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