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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Long hair on men

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 Re:

Quote:
It seems that if you are important enough spiritually and you have effected alot of people, hair on these men look glorious, especially white hair. Do a couple of miracles and healings and your looks will be forgotten.



[b]Act 10:34[/b] [i]Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons...[/i]

... yet we are. We'll overlook certain things if we deem someone as important or special enough.

Thats true for a lot of things, not just hair. Look at Peter Popoff. He's been proven a fake over and over again, yet he still has a following even today.

Krispy

 2007/5/14 10:28
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I shared these bits and pieces on an earlier version of 'heads and what we should do with them'. If you knew what I look like you would know that in many ways this topic is not one with which I struggle.;-)

The point I want to make is about the phrase 'long hair'. The words used are only used in this passage of scripture so it is impossible to compare them with other contexts. [color=0000ff]“Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has [b]long hair[/b], it is a dishonor to him? But if a woman has [b]long hair[/b], it is a glory to her; for her [b]hair[/b] is given to her for a covering.” (1Cor 11:14-15 NKJV)[/color] The Greek words used are both verbs and nouns. Thayers Lexicon has an interesting comment about this word. [color=0000ff]komE dieffers from thrix (the anatomical or physical term) by designating the hair as an ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested)[/color] The significance of this is that the 'hair' is being regarded as an ornament rather than as a physiological fact. A more scholarly description with lots of Classical Greek quotations can be found [url=http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%CE%BA%E1%BD%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7&root=%CE%BA%E1%BD%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7&number=682690]here[/url] There is a further expansion of the meaning of the word here too [color=0000ff]the hair of the head (locks, as ornamental, and thus differing from 2359; which properly denotes merely the scalp)[/color] This is viewing the hair by function rather than by length. This is not essentially 'long hair' but 'coiffeured hair' ie 'hair as an ornament'.

A Nazarite (Numbers 6) was required to leave his hair uncut and if he did this for a long period it would no doubt become 'long hair' in the English sense of the word but it would not become 'coiffeured hair'. A nazarite's hair would never become hair coiffeured ornament. The 'length' of the hair then is only significant as an aspect of the grooming rather than something which could be measured.

I have worked with Christians of many cultures and natures and have often asked the question 'is it a cause of shame in your culture for a man to have long hair'? Often the answer is 'no'. In many cultures long and unkempt hair was part of the uniform of the the warrior, so there was no hint of effeminacy. If you ask would it be cause of shame for a man to have elaborately styled hair; the answer, almost invariably, is 'yes'. Almost universally 'coiffeured hair' is a sign of effeminacy.

edit: 19:30
I have just done a search through the LXX (Septuagint) for the word komE and found the following references.
Leviticus 19:27;Numbers 6:5;Job 1:20;16:12;38:32;Ezekiel 24:23;44:20

It is interesting that there is always some connotation of 'tending the hair' in these references. Even the references to the Nazarite can be seen as a studied neglect of the hair during his period of special sanctification to God. These references are interesting simply because we can see how the word was usually used.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 14:23Profile









 Re: Long hair on men

Krispy, I've been discussing I COR in another thread and I think it's imperative that we keep Paul's words in context of who he was, and who he was speaking to. He was a Roman citizen speaking to Roman citzens. The "Mr. Spock" haircut was all the rage - and I've seen photos of paintings of Paul - and he's always got the same "Ceaser-style"... not "Israelite style" at all.

Now, if you're going to take I COR as the irrefutable Law of God, please go back 3 chapters:

"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord... (I COR 7:12)

"I 'suppose' therefore that this is good for the 'present distress'... (I COR 7:26)

"But she is happier if she so abide, after 'my judgement'... and I think also that I have the Spirit of God." (I COR 7:40)

I know I'm going to get roasted on this, but these are letters written by Paul to specific churches for specific purposes. It isn't law. It was never intended to be.

And please consider that many Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish men sport longer hair by tradition, and, by tradition, they wear tzeniuts, tallits, and other head coverings when they pray to God.

Lastly, consider the most "manly-man" of the Old-Testament, Samson.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall seperate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to seperate themselves unto the LORD:... All the days of the vow of his seperation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of his hair grow..." (NUMBERS 6:1-5)

"There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man." (JUDGES 16:17)

 2007/5/14 14:51









 Re:

Corey, you bring up some great points, and thanks for bringing them up.

I would caution you, tho, to be careful with the "Paul was talking to a specific people" because the implication is that perhaps the particular piece of scripture does not apply to us today. When we start to do that, then we open ourselves up to applying that way of thinking to any scripture we want to ignore because it makes us uncomfortable.

This kind of thinking is what is used to justify women pastors.

If we're going to do that, then I propose that perhaps adultry via lusting in my heart really doesnt apply today... so I can gawk all I want.

I know thats an extreme example, but when we being to dismiss scripture by saying it wasnt written for us... where does it end? Who decides what is relevent and what isnt? I do... and for you, you do... because your truth may be different than mine. It's basically almost a "new age" relevence type of thinking.

Krispy

 2007/5/14 15:16
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: On the lighter- side

I lament the fact that my hair has become migratory, it has chosen to relocate in my ears, nose, and back, so I can't really claim that I have hair loss, maybe hair re-location :-)


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D.Miller

 2007/5/14 15:27Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: "Hippy"

Am almost positive there is another thread around here in this regards... Don't miss what Ron pointed out earlier it does bring a very needed distinction to all this. Krispy would well know of the "Hair Bands" of the 80's and I was once of that somewhat derogatory group, being a guitar player but would have distanced myself from the ... musicablility of it all. Rather, was more of a guitar players guitar player so ... I modeled the mop after Randy Rhoads which to my mind was much more 'cool'.

Now, here comes the part that will likely spoil it all for anybody coming to the conference in October ... I still do. Have had long-ish hair all my life, well at least from about 10 yrs old and onward. My Dad frowned, my Mom recognized it just was what 'fit my head' so to speak. So it is something of a mixed bag. To tell you the truth, it can be a real pain either way, if it's too short it is highly unruly, it curls and looks ... girly! Go figure...

Besides I draw all my power from it, not about to hack it off. ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/5/14 15:31Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 i have long hair

brethren
greetings in Christ's name by whose blood we are justified and reconciled to the Father. AMEN.

the scipture cited at the beginning of this discussion makes mention of nature showing that it is unseemly that a man/male have long hair and Paul is right. However if we observe the animal kingdom, there is one animal in which the male is recognized by his long hair, that being the lion. The lion is one of the 4 faces of the cherubim and is also associated with our Lord in the title "Lion of the Tribe of Judah"

this is not a defense but a testimony of why i have long hair. by the way i am black so it is in the form of dreadlocks. The first time i grew my hair out this way was at our Lord's instruction. in the time i would sit and twist each lock, HE would minister to me because i was always busy with one thing or another while in school. Then my parents complained because the didn't understand why i grew my hair out. at that time, our Lord had me cut my hair to honour them. for 2 years or so i had my hair short and then again i was instructed to grow it back. Most people assume that my hair is some sort of decoration or ornamentation (which i suppose to some degree it is) but it is something more than that. it is a part of what i am and who i am as much as any other attribute of me which God has made.

the tendancy i've noticed with people is to assume i am some sort of hooligan and so they are surprised when they see i am a child of God, husband and father, a working man etc. This flies in the face of men's wrong perceptions and it is a hard thing for men to reckon with being wrong i'm finding. a reason which God showed me not to cut my hair ws because of this very thing, if i did, then men could continue thinking wrongly rather than repent. This is a microcosm of something which is inherent in man, a spirit of "i'm right always" which is by defaul in opposition to God and needs to be confronted. When i consider my hair i see it in light of this and so it ceases to be an ornament but is a reminder of this battle and more than that also, it testifies to my being in the midst of it.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/5/14 15:43Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi Mike...

Interesting post. My wife's brother has a very similar "problem" with his hair. It is so thick that he either must cut it every five days -- or run the risk of looking unkept. For a while, he kept it a little long (not shoulder length or anything) -- just so the weight of the hair would flatten his "puff."

I think that the real issue is NOT the hair or hair length. The issue is the desire within the man or woman's heart. What is their motivation -- and to which system are they displaying their supposed "allegiance?" There are some individuals who develop a hair style to:

A.) Rebel
or
B.) Fit in

Long hair is hardly considered "rebellion" by unbelievers in the West -- at least nowadays. However, one may argue that some do it to "fit in" with the established patterns of this world. Is their hair style an attempt to gain acceptance by the people of this world? Then again, one might argue that "religious" haircuts are sometimes done to "fit in" or become "accepted" by the established patterns of the religious folk.

I've never worn long hair, except for a period of time in which I portrayed the role of "Jesus" in a large Passion Play. It's not that I necessarily believe that Jesus had long hair when he walked this earthly sod. On the contrary, I doubt he concentrated much on the issue. However, I made it long so that the people in the play wouldn't see "Chris" -- they would perceive "Christ." I also grew a beard -- which took me about six months to grow. Needless to say, this was quite a warm sacrifice in sunny south Texas. In the end, people thought that I looked like the "Jesus" from the film "[i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i]." A few individuals were quite offended by my long hair. Even after explaining the rationale, I was still ostricized by a few well-meaning believers. In fact, a couple of them seem to have never forgiven my "blasphemy."

The point of the matter is that we are not supposed to parade either our "piety" or our "worldliness" on the outside. I often wonder what individuals from the year "0" looked like? What did a guy look like who typically used a knife to cut his hair? Did he cut his hair every two weeks (like I do) or did he cut his hair every two months? In my opinion, this is one of those Romans 1-16 issues that cannot be fully understood or resolved by I Corinthians 11.

:-)


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Christopher

 2007/5/14 16:40Profile









 Re:

I find [i]this[/i] is interesting... most churches that make a large issue out of men's hair length will sometimes have a picture of Jesus hanging in the church somewhere portraying Jesus with long hair.

Now, I think we're all smart enough to figure out that Jesus probably looked nothing like all the portraits. We have no idea how long his hair was. He might have been balding, who knows?

But I think it's humorous that some will judge a person by hair length, and hang up a picture of Jesus... with long hair!

Krispy

 2007/5/14 17:03









 Re:

Krispy said

Quote:
Corey, you bring up some great points, and thanks for bringing them up.



Yay! I did something right!

Quote:
I would caution you, tho, to be careful with the "Paul was talking to a specific people" because the implication is that perhaps the particular piece of scripture does not apply to us today. When we start to do that, then we open ourselves up to applying that way of thinking to any scripture we want to ignore because it makes us uncomfortable.



Context is at the very heart of gospel truth and errancy. If you want to burden your congregation with new laws, created by Paul's suggestions to a church deep in the Roman Empire... you might as well burden them with the 600+ laws from the Old Testament, too.

Paul was advising what he thought best for a church fresh out of Diana pagan worship in the heart of the empire. He was not a prophet. He was not adding to the Law. He was trying to preach the gospel to the heathen in their own language and customs. Consider:

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (LUKE 16:16)

And if you think Paul would appreciate the modern "Pauline" view on Christianity - you know, where we preach 70% epistles and 10% gospels, consider:

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Appollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul...? For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to [b]preach the gospel[/b]: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (I COR 1:12-17)

Quote:
This kind of thinking is what is used to justify women pastors.



Where's it said that a woman can't proclaim the gospel?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." (I COR 14:34)

Yet, "...Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgement." (JUDGES 4:4-5)

And she prophesies that the honour of killing the general of the great host will go to Jael, a woman.

"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent...She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples. At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead." (JUDGES 5:24-27)

Yet we persist in believeing in this illegality of a woman having authority over men. There is a time coming, however...

"How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man." (JER 31:22)

... and now is...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (GAL 3:28-29)

How could I have a problem sitting down meekly in the congregation while a Deborah, or a Jackie Pullinger, or a Helen Roseveare preaches the gospel to me with scripture like these backing them up?

But, you say, they are the "weaker vessles" and destined to bow to the wills of us manly-men (un-Samsonish hair, notwithstanding). To this I respond:

"God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: [b]That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/b]" (I COR 1:27-29)

Quote:
If we're going to do that, then I propose that perhaps adultry via lusting in my heart really doesnt apply today... so I can gawk all I want.



I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying we ought to do what Jesus taught us and [b]preach the gospel[/b], not the epistles.

Quote:
I know thats an extreme example, but when we being to dismiss scripture by saying it wasnt written for us... where does it end? Who decides what is relevent and what isnt? I do... and for you, you do... because your truth may be different than mine. It's basically almost a "new age" relevence type of thinking.



I'm not after "my truth" or "your truth". I'm after "the truth".

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ: As obedient children, [b]not fahsioning yourselves according to to the former lusts in your ignorance:[/b]" (I PET 1:13-14)

 2007/5/14 17:30





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