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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do all Catholics go to Hell?

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 Re:

KrispyKrittr said

Quote:
While I hope you are right, Jay, I have to disagree with your conclusions. If a Catholic faithfully believes in scriptural salvation, then they are not a true Catholic. Sadly, most Catholic believe in Catholic doctrine. Otherwise... they would not be there.

You've been very influenced by the ecumenical movement, I think.



Harsh, dude! How do you know he's been influenced? Maybe he's a Calvinist and believes the elect are saved no matter what denomination they belong to -just so long as they have access to a Bible (Oh, and the Will of God to save them, of course).

Btw, the Catholics are right about one thing the Evangelicals constantly miss: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (JAS 2:17-26)

Hehe, Krispy - always makin' friends...

 2007/5/10 14:19









 Re:

Of course, the Catholic Church is basically a cult

Of course, many of its doctrines are wrong

Of course, a Catholic who gets truly born again should "come out".


Probably that, as Krispy says, makes them not proper Catholics.

But I have known Catholics who were truly born again yet could not seem to get to the point of coming out.

Historically, has anyone read a biography of Madame Guyon for example? Apparently she had a true experience of God and found to her surprise that she couldn't pray to Mary or the saints any more. And the priest got cross with her because in the confessional she only had petty sins to confess. The Lord had cleansed her heart and made her a new creation.

Yet she remained, at least in theory, a Catholic all her life!

I don't know why, but there is is!

When one has been steeped in a religion that is nominally Christian its sometimes hard to get clarity on its errors. Not everyone gets "clean and clear" when they come to the Lord.

There are elements of "cultism" in all denominations. Let us look to our own spirits!

I spoke in another thread of a friend who said, after I'd come out of the Presbyterian Church, that I still had my "Presbyterian corset"... "in the back of the wardrobe"! Man's traditions can keep us from having true freedom in Christ, whatever denomination we belong to (or even if we claim to belong to none, as I do).

It juse happens that the RCC is probably the most ancient, strongest, and one of the most astray of these man-made traditions.

Hebrews 12:1 says: "Let us lay aside every weight...", as well as sin. Both are entanglements that weigh us down.

And, as Paul said, (Paul West, not the apostle!) the RCC has a spirit behind it. Even someone who is truly born again in that tradition doesn't always have the light or the will to let the Lord free him.


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/5/10 14:33
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Krispy, I understand your concerns. You and I are very alike on this topic. I was appalled when I first got into reading church history and the terrible injustices done by Catholics in the name of Christ.

I am not Catholic, I do not want to be Catholic, I know that their concept of Mary is very dangerous, the Eucharist is abominable and God will judge their false teaching in the end.

I also lean towards the historicist viewpoint and see the office of pope as the fulfillment of antichrist/man of sin spoken of in the bible.

Having said all that. I cannot in good faith pronounce that all Catholics are doomed. Hear me out, I believe that apart from Christ there is no salvation, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast. I believe that Jews are going to hell without Christ, Muslims are going to hell without Christ, Hindu's are going to hell without Christ, Catholics are going to hell without Christ and Protestants are going to hell without Christ.

I just cannot say that all Catholics are without Christ.

 2007/5/10 14:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Harsh, dude! How do you know he's been influenced?



Not really... I like Jay. Notice I ended my sentence about him being influenced by the ecumenical movement with "I think". That implies that it's my impression, and I dont know that for sure.

:-)

Krispy

 2007/5/10 14:44









 Re:

Quote:
I just cannot say that all Catholics are without Christ.



Notice that is not really what I am saying either. There are those in the Catholic Church who have put their faith in Christ alone. They are "Catholic" by name alone.

My point tho is they can not believe and trust in Catholic doctrine [i]and[/i] be saved at the same time. They are not compatible.

Whether they come out or not is another question. As I said on another thread, if a Muslim gets saved he can not go on practicing Islam, right? Or a Mormon Mormonism. We expect them to come out. No, wait... scripture commands them to come out.

I think we should as well exhort saved "catholics" to come out of the RCC as well. If they dont they are in disobedience, just as we would be if we didnt come out of whatever it was we were messed up in. At that point, it's between them and God.

Krispy

 2007/5/10 14:49









 Re:

A lot of folks on here probably think I bash Catholics. Not so... it might interest everyone to know that our next door neighbors are very very close friends of ours... and they are Catholic. Hard core mass 3 times a week Catholics.

I love Catholics... which is why I feel so strongly about this issue. If I didnt love Catholics I wouldnt give a rip.

Krispy

 2007/5/10 14:51
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Notice that is not really what I am saying either. There are those in the Catholic Church who have put their faith in Christ alone. They are "Catholic" by name alone.

My point tho is they can not believe and trust in Catholic doctrine and be saved at the same time. They are not compatible.



Well said Krispy. We agree on this issue. Now, if I could just convince you to become Reformed and read the ESV. 8-)

 2007/5/10 15:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
A lot of folks on here probably think I bash Catholics. Not so... it might interest everyone to know that our next door neighbors are very very close friends of ours... and they are Catholic. Hard core mass 3 times a week Catholics.

I love Catholics... which is why I feel so strongly about this issue. If I didnt love Catholics I wouldnt give a rip.

Krispy

I go to a Catholic lady in the course of work. Her sister who looks after her is so earnest in her beliefs, and keeps talking about the church and so on. It's heartbreaking to see someone so bound to man's traditions, without any idea of what it means to truly know God.

Yet if I say only a little bit that doesn't tie in with what the priest has said, there is an instant negative reaction. Even if it isn't anything against any doctrine of Catholicism!

Truly a spiritual stronghold.

That's the main reason why I wouldn't come too hard against born again Catholics who don't come out. The power of this demonic stronghold is so great that not everyone has the courage to face opposing it.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood..."

Prayer, and spiritual warfare needed to break this terrible chain binding a soul.

And not every Catholic wants to be set free.

Jeannette

 2007/5/10 15:05
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

When men like AW Tozer and Leonard Ravenhill predict that not even 2% of professing Protestant Christians in America are genuinely saved, should we really spend our time throwing stones at the Catholic Church?


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/5/10 15:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Well said Krispy. We agree on this issue. Now, if I could just convince you to become Reformed and read the ESV.



Well, you didnt "convince" me of anything on this issue... dont think you should get your hopes up about me becoming "reformed" or abandoning the KJV. :-)

Seriously tho, I want to be teachable, and that means if clear evidence was before me concerning [b]any[/b] topic, I want to be ready to change my theology accordingly.

I did that when I studied the Bible version issue. I started out wanting to proove there was nothing wrong with the NIV... ended up dumping it for a version I thought I would never be able to understand.

Krispy

 2007/5/10 15:17





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