Poster | Thread | PaulWest Member
Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
Every face in the room turned and looked at me
This is the dear price we pay, brother. By and large we will be ostracized like every faithful and obedient servant of God has been throughout the ages. Everything about gospel is diametrically opposed to how unregenerate man thinks. This is why I always cringe the moment before I open my mouth to field preach. Some preachers will lie to you and tell you it is a pleasure to street preach, but I agree with John Wesley - to me it is a cross. But, unfortunately, there is no other way. I know that as soon as I open my mouth, the "modern gospel" delusion will rise up in the minds of my hearers and stir up great anger and disdain for what I am doing. I really don't like this feeling; I would much rather be accepted and praised and find unity and and peace. Any preacher who tells you they actually [i]enjoy[/i] and look forward to open air repentance preaching is not right and is probably doing it for the wrong reason.
But, like you already know, this is counting the cost of coming to (and obeying) Christ's call on our lives. Not everyone is called to street preach like this, but everyone is called to serve in some self-denying, uncomfortable capacity.
We sail a bloody sea to heaven's shore. The modern gospel is like the wind that instead of filling our sails, incites the waves.
Brother Paul _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2007/5/12 14:07 | Profile | hmmhmm Member
Joined: 2006/1/31 Posts: 4994 Sweden
| Re: You're Special - The Modern Gospel in a Nutshell | | i posted this for itself in the articles section, but ill "slide" it in here to, it is short but so true
Where, O where?
(J. R. Anderson, "A Warning to Ministers" 1851)
At the end of the seven days, the Lord gave me a message. He said, "Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman for Israel. Whenever you receive a message from Me, pass it on to the people immediately. If I warn the wicked, saying, 'You will surely die,' but you fail to deliver the warning, they will die in their sins. And I will hold you responsible, demanding your blood for theirs." Ezekiel 3:16-18
Where are the ministers who will rouse this sleeping generation to . . . the solemn realities of the eternal world, the shortness of time, and the certainties of judgment?
Where are the preachers who are weighed down with . . . the interests of immortal souls, the difficulties of dealing faithfully with them, and the solemn account that is to be rendered for them?
Where, O where?
_________________ CHRISTIAN
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| 2007/5/12 14:22 | Profile |
| Re: You're Special - The Modern Gospel in a Nutshell | | But... sniff... I [i]am[/i] special. |
| 2007/5/12 15:04 | | MisterCheez Member
Joined: 2006/2/22 Posts: 96 Colorado
| Re: You're Special - The Modern Gospel in a Nutshell | | At the risk of being labeled "modern" and "man-centered", I must disagree with much of what is being said here.
First off, I think most everyone can agree with this statement:
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The modern gospel ignores the utter falleness of man, something the great evangelists of the past did not ignore.
The debate is how to discuss mankind's fallen state in relationship to God - why is man fallen, what does God think about it and is there a remedy?
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Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus,
Interesting approach. Let me paraphrase this approach:
"God hates you, you evil, worthless, stupid, lost, filthy, sinning, dirty, worm dog. In fact, He will take great delight in punishing you endlessly for your vileness."
"However, since He is so loving and gracious, God sacrificed His own son so you can escape the torture He would love to lay on you and, instead, continue to worship Him forever as a worthless servant redeemed by grace. Don’t forget, though, you killed God’s son!"
Exaggerated? Perhaps, but I suspect this hard-nosed, “turn or burn” approach is usually more fleshly than godly. Yes, people need to hear that their sins have plunged them into darkness, are contrary to a holy God and have aligned them with God’s enemies. Yes, all will be judged and the enemies of God punished. This fact needs to be established. What makes me furious is that many only seem to know how to preach condemnation. Many pastors harp year after year on their converted congregations about their worthlessness and sinfulness. Does anyone else see the deception in this!? Believers are holy sons and daughters of God meant to walk in kingdom authority and victory! Pastors who continue to flog believers about their unworthiness have set aside grace for works, don’t understand the authority of believers and are a mouthpiece of condemnation. Furthermore, those who always resort to verbally beating believers and unbelievers most certainly lack discernment and probably love. Many unbelievers already know they are guilty, their conscience condemns them.
God wishes that none should perish.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only son.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world but to save it.
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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They were all gung-ho and ready to hand out their tracts...until I stood up on a stone monument and began preaching true, old-fashioned repentanace, using Hebrews 9:27 as my springboard. Man, you should have seen their faces! Totally mortified. It was as though they were hearing the true gospel for the first time. That was the first and last time we've gone out together.
I'd wager your greatest achievements that evening were: hardening unbelievers; creating division in the Body; discouraging nervous believers who were taking a step of courage/faith; swelling your pride; and "earning" some holiness/acceptance with God.
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But... sniff... I am special.
What right have we to be so arrogant and snide? The hard word requires discernment and most of all love. Thank God for not treating us in the same fashion. He created mankind in His image and Adam & God walked in fellowship. Even after Adam and Eve’s transgression, God dealt with them mercifully and in love. All of Bible history is a massive manifesto of God’s love for mankind and the SPECIALNESS of man in His eyes. Man has worth, God gave it to us when he made us in his own image.
I will not be quick to despise unbelievers and will attempt to preach love and grace, using a hard word only when it is needed to clarify God’s holiness or man’s transgression. _________________ Brian Erickson
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| 2007/5/14 18:59 | Profile |
| Re: | | MisterCheez said Quote:
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But... sniff... I am special.
What right have we to be so arrogant and snide? The hard word requires discernment and most of all love.
Touché, mon ami. Touché.
After you've calmed down, let us know about this "love" you speak of. |
| 2007/5/14 19:14 | | PaulWest Member
Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
I'd wager your greatest achievements that evening were: hardening unbelievers; creating division in the Body; discouraging nervous believers who were taking a step of courage/faith; swelling your pride; and "earning" some holiness/acceptance with God.
This is out of line, friend. You don't know me, or how I preached, or the tears that were in my eyes that evening. How can you leap to such judgmental and pessimistic conclusions from reading one post? The "pride" you accuse me of is actually reflected back on you; commenting in such a way to a brother whom you've never met displays a [i]mountian[/i] of pride and an overall immaturity in the faith.
I'll ask you (and everyone else in these gracious forums) to please [i]pray[/i] before repsonding in anger or frustration. Let's get to know each other before bringing the hatchet down.
Brother Paul :-) _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2007/5/14 20:09 | Profile | JesusIsMyLrd Member
Joined: 2005/10/28 Posts: 119 Iowa, USA
| Re: | | Quote:
'you are worse than you thought yourself to be, much worse. You are an offense to God, you have lived your whole life despising His goodness, not valuing His Greatness, and not matching up to His holiness. Your sin is against God, so Great a God, so good a God, your sin is infinetly great because "The God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified" (Dan 5:23). You must one day stand before this God and give an account of your life. Standing before the perfect and holy God who dwells in unaproachable light He will search you life and soul and everything you have done will be brought to light. Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus, See the love and grace of God when while we were still sinners Christ died for us, the just for the unjust. God now offers a full and complete pardon to sinners on the grounds of the death of His Son who died for sinners. He promises that anyone who turns from their sins and comes to Him through His Son will be saved. So come to Christ, as bad as you are, call upon His Name, throw youself at His mercy, He is willing and mighty to save and He will not cast you out. He is wanting to save you not only from hell but from all your sins, to come and live inside you,to be your God, and to make you a new person. So repent and believe in Jesus Christ'
GLORY!!!
Get it in print!! :-) :-D ;-) 8-)
That's the kind of preaching that shook the nations during Wesley's day... Do it again Lord!
Blessings, -nathan _________________ Nathan
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| 2007/5/14 21:58 | Profile | MisterCheez Member
Joined: 2006/2/22 Posts: 96 Colorado
| Re: | | My apologies for being judgmental, you are correct, such assumptions were not fair and I honestly ask for your forgiveness.
That said, the intention of the post wasn't to slam you guys or defend a tract, but to point out the peril of constantly preaching a harsh, condemning word.
If some of the criticisms seemed personal and are not true, please translate them to general trends in certain realms of the church - not yourselves. I stand by my points and warn against street preaching driven by competition, works or ego.
Was the entire post out of line? Does anyone see any validity to my concerns? _________________ Brian Erickson
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| 2007/5/14 22:41 | Profile |
| Re: | | MisterCheez said Quote:
Was the entire post out of line? Does anyone see any validity to my concerns?
Your post wasn't out of line. The tone of it was.
I'm actually one of the most argumentative folks on this board - Jesus is new to me, I've got billions of questions, zero patience, and less than zero tact. So I wholeheartedly forgive you.
Now, here is my answer to your argument.
"...the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the country about Jordon, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins..." (LUKE 3:2-3)
Jesus' first words in Mark: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (MARK 1:15)
Jesus' first words of his ministry in Matthew (or fourth line after his battle with the devil): "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (MATT 4:17)
In three out of the four gospels we are commanded to [b]repent[/b] of our evil deeds [i]so that[/i] we might be [b]saved[/b]. And this command, this imperative, is given before the horses have even left the gates. It pretty much means, dear friend, that if we don't repent the rest of the gospel - forgiveness included - is meaningless.
And this is the key to WHY the preacher must appear unforgiving: because God is unforgiving to the unrepentant man.
"... but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." (ISAIAH 66:2)
You're positively right about there being no place for ego or pride in street preaching, pulpit preaching, or in the heart of any man or woman who calls upon the name of Christ. But you're no angel either, as evidenced by your previous post, right (and please don't go off the handle with me for saying so, because I have a temper and am learning from your mistake).
Lastly, try to quote scripture, book, chapter and line. The more the better. Man's opinion means next to nothing here. The way to get your point across is with scripture. Most of the players on this site are the "big sharks" of evangelicalism. They know their stuff and can eat minnows like you and I in one fell gulp!
God Bless You |
| 2007/5/14 23:37 | |
| Re: | | MisterCheez, btw, I've only handed out tracts three times.
But the people that do this on a monthly, weekly, or even day-to-day basis... now there's courage. |
| 2007/5/15 0:04 | |
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