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narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1123
Germany NRW

 It happened in our Church in London just yesterday

Just yesterday May 6, our church invited a team from another church to take our evening service. This church brought their music team and ministry team members. The meeting was called "Catch the fire" and it was announce to other churches in our locality.

They started the service with contemporary popular Christian songs and we all worshipped together with the usual raising of hands, clapping and rhythmic movements. Nothing wrong with that so far. After a couple of songs the pastor from that church told us to stretch ourselves out to receive more of the Holy Spirit. He encouraged us to switch off our minds and receive more of the Holy Spirit. Then he shouted "Holy Spirit More, more, more, more.... Suddenly many started to giggle, shout, jerk, or shiver. Some fell on the floor. The "Ministry Team" laid hand on people who then mostly manifested similar symptoms. I felt a strange atmosphere enveloped the meeting hall with ca 150 people. Members from the ministry team tried to get in touch with me but I left the hall and went into the corridor. I was aware that something supernatural happened there but I do not think it was from God. As I met other people from our church I commented that I felt perfectly alright with my own mind and do not see the need to switch it off in order to encounter something special. The agreed with me in this but did not think there was anything wrong with what we saw happening that evening.

Later one of our elders saw me in the corridor and asked me what I though about it.

I told him the following:
1)When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, why then do we need an extra filling, as if the indwelling spirit was not enough? If I want draw closer to God, I do it by the known means of prayer, confession of sins, immersion in his word.

James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

2) If you are out for an ecstatic experience, you will get it, but will it be from the Lord. The Israelites had similar ecstatic experience when they danced around the golden calf or when the priests of Baal wanted to invoke Gods appearance.

Ex 32: 25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughing-stock to their enemies.

3) We had this Toronto Blessing in our church for a couple of years and it faded out. I asked him if anything good came out of it in terms of spiritual fruit. We had hardly any souls saved in all the years passed. We had just as many divorces than weddings in our church. We also shrunk in numbers.

4) I asked him if there is any place of the New Testament where it is recommended to seek for such an experience and implement it in our gatherings.
I support the use of the gift of the Spirit and I believe He still heals and performs miracles.
We need the power of the Holy Spirit but I do not believe this power is given for those who are seeking an ecstatic experience.

5) The event in Acts 2 where the Holy Ghost fell was extraordinary, but it was accompanied by Peters urge for repentance.
Acts 2: 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. 41 Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The elder responded and said that I should not judge what other people experience.
Many receive a wonderful blessing from God.
I am a very black-and-white person.
I am too narrow minded and should be more open minded (so that my brain falls out?)

I told him that I used to be an ardent supported of the TB movement but that it took me years to come to the point where I was able to discern the movement as being soulish at best. I mentioned to him that it was only after the Lord (Yes, the Lord, not Satan) lead me through adversities and suffering that I could come to my senses. Only after I appreciated His cross and his kindness in disciplining me as a son I was given the privilege of discernment of some of these matters. I also mentioned to him that I spent a lot of time researching this matter and be reading books and articles about it. Last not least it was sermons listed on this very website that helped me to see it.

In the end promised to sit down and talk to me about these matters some time.

I am very much alone in this matter in my church although some of our friend and fellows can see my point and are equally sceptical.

I must say that God made it very clear to me and my wife and 4 children that we are to stay in this church as long as possible. I may be one of the few who has this discernment. The ability to discern is not only given me to help me to distance myself from this but also to help others to come out of it. I draw my spiritual food from sources outside our local such as your website and fellowship to likeminded Christians.

I would like to call you reader with discernment to use your gift with all wisdom and compassion on those who are trapped by it.

"Jude 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear— hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

Did you ever wonder why it took God six days to create the world but his church is nowhere near her supposed bridal beauty after 6000 years of his working? God bears a rotten church for a long time before he judges. He is soooo patient which you us so that we have time to repent. They can only repent if the prophet goes out and warns them.

Hes 37 Ezekiel 33:7
Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me.

May God help us in this battle!
Narrowpath

 2007/5/7 15:34Profile
coffee
Member



Joined: 2006/10/16
Posts: 80


 Re: It happened in our Church in London just yesterday

Dear Narrowpath,

I read your posting and wanted to know have you ever listened to David Wilkerson's message "A Time To Weep and A Time To Laugh" He preached it in 1997 was timely then and very timely today for the discernment of what is false and what is truth. It would be good to maybe make a copy to give to your elder ....pray about it and see.

It was posted not to long ago on must hear sermons, and I agree!

Your Sister in Jesus,

Here is the link to the sermon and you can also download it under "Wilkerson" it's on page 3 of his sermons

http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID15479.mp3

 2007/5/7 17:05Profile
JennRich
Member



Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140
Alabama

 Re: It happened in our Church in London just yesterday

Quote:

narrowpath wrote:
He encouraged us to switch off our minds and receive more of the Holy Spirit. Then he shouted "Holy Spirit More, more, more, more....


God said to love Him with all our mind, not switch it off. . . I would be highly uncomfortable in this scenario as well.

Quote:

narrowpath wrote:
Did you ever wonder why it took God six days to create the world but his church is nowhere near her supposed bridal beauty after 6000 years of his working?


A reminder to encourage you: The church -- the true church -- IS pure and faithful and beautiful. The problem is with the millions of false believers that call themselves the church.


_________________
Jennifer Richardson

 2007/5/7 17:11Profile









 Re:

If your church leaders do not recognize this "experience" for what it is, then I would highly recommend you find another church. If they do see problems, and are willing to address it, then you should ride it out and see what the Lord will do in this situation.

My guess is... most in your church, including your leadership, will think this was a wonderful thing, and desire more. If this is the case, then go... God does not expect us to stay and try to make a difference. What happens almost all the time when believers attempt to do that is they themselves end up in deception as well.

This is why we are called to seperate from error, but today that is never preached, and believers are too worried about hurting someone's feelings.

To obey is better than sacrifice.

Krispy

 2007/5/7 17:34









 Re: It happened in our Church in London just yesterday

First of all, I see nothing wrong with what you had described. People respond differently from the moving of the holy Spirit. Have you ever seen a man under conviction of the holy Spirit? I have, the conviction can be so great that it brings you to your knees weeping. I saw one man fighting the conviction, he was shaking all over the seat, but finally he gave in.

When I went to a Revival meeting back in 1978, the the power of God so saturated those meetings that all you can do is praise God or get out. The atmosphere was like a heavy quilt draped on the congregation, there was a holy fear of God, and miracles began to happen all over the place. I saw one person bound from head to toe in a body cast began to jump up and down and began to run around the alter. I was only 12 years old, but that left a lasting impression. And I have NEVER felt that same presense in any church since. Today, I hear a lot of shouting, alot of loud music, alot of preaching with no power and I am talking about Pentecostal Churches.

Regarding this statement:

Quote:
1)When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, why then do we need an extra filling, as if the indwelling spirit was not enough? If I want draw closer to God, I do it by the known means of prayer, confession of sins, immersion in his word.

The bible offers a rebuttal to your claim. Consider these words:

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

You can read this in it's context if you like, but these men who had prayed this prayer were already filled with the Spirit.

The Apostle was talking to Spirit filled believers in Ephesus when he said in 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit
Quote:
)If you are out for an ecstatic experience, you will get it, but will it be from the Lord?

True seekers of God are never looking for an ecstatic experince, they want to know God and His ways. However, those who do find Him may come into an ecstatic experince. When I have sought God, I did not, but I know of others that have. Do I discount their experience? certainly not. As I said, everyone is different.

We can get really dogmatic about these things. For example. The gentile church started off with the baptism of the holy Spirit BEFORE the baptism in water. We could look at that and say, God didn't stick to formulae. God's ways are higher than our ways. What we should realize and get this into our minds is that the method may change, but the foundation never changes.



 2007/5/7 20:56
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1123
Germany NRW

 Re: Re: It happened in our Church in London just yesterday

Dear friend,
Thanks for your reply. I accept your rebuttal quoting Acts 4:31 and Eph 5:18.

What I wanted to say is that people think that the Holy Spirit will come and take control over their motions and emotions and give them a "high" or a quick fix from personal issues without the need for true regeneration and repentance.

Quote:
Have you ever seen a man under conviction of the holy Spirit? I have, the conviction can be so great that it brings you to your knees weeping. I saw one man fighting the conviction, he was shaking all over the seat, but finally he gave in.



Yes, I have no issue with people being struck, tremble or shake under conviction.

I have been in a meeting with Jackie Pullinger in Manila in 85 where the Holy Spirit fell on the congregation and some people fell on the floor.
Most of those on the floor where delivered from demons by the ministry team.

But that was not the case last weekend. The team worked towards the phenonomen inducing it with soft music. No mention about sin, no evidence of conviction. Later the pastor made an appeal for all people who have "needs" or "hurts". Nowadays preaching concentrates a lot on what is in for me rather than preaching the cross and repentance.

To his credit I must say he made an appeal to forgive those who hurt us which is commendable.

I also sensed this thick blanket, but I felt uncomfortable about it. The laughing sounded hysteric rather than relieved .

David Wilkerson in his sermon "A time to weep and a time to laugh" masterly elaborated on the fundamental difference between the revelling in Ex 32 and the rejoicing after repentance in Neh 8.

The deception lies in the seeming similarity of the events. One is truly of God, the other not.

In revivals throughout history strange manifestation have been recorded as well. Some are genuine and some fake. Satan mocks the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. We need discernment.

Last Saturday while we had our outreach a homeless man approached us telling us he was a Christian from a nearby church. He wanted to hand out our tracts to the passersby. I smelled he was drunk and refused to give him the tracts. Then he started to dance strangly. It was a mockery. I told him, "you are not right with God yet" and asked him politely to leave us alone - which he did.

I contend that there were some people in the fellowship who have a true desire for God alone who do not have the discernment. Still, I feel they have to be warned so that they not eventually give in into deception.

God bless you
narrowpath

 2007/5/8 17:12Profile





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