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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God: Linear or "Eternal Now"??

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 Re:

Jesse, I'm afraid I got lost in this one, it was just so long!

Seems to be playing philosophy mind games. Like ?Bishop Butler, who philosophised that nothing existed except when observed by someone else.

A limerick was written:

[i][color=000066]There was a young man who said, God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad.[/color][/i]

To which the good Bishop apparently replied

[i][color=000066]Dear Sir:
Your astonishment's odd:
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours Faithfully,
GOD.[/color][/i]


Jeannette

 2007/5/7 18:14









 Re:

Quote:
Omniscience is 'all knowing', but the God of Open Theism is not 'all knowing'.



Open Theism says that God has all knowledge, that is, God knows all that there is to know.

Does God know that I have a 12 year old son? Not at all. "Well, then you are taking away from God's omniscience. If God is omniscient, he knows you have a 12 year old son."

No, I am not taking away from God's omniscience. Why? Because I don't have a 12 year old son.

Likewise, if the future is open, God must know it as such. To say that God does not know that the future is all exhaustively determined does not take away from His omniscience, if in fact the future is not exhaustively settled.

Our future moral decisions haven't been made yet. They are contingent, not certain. And if contingent, and not certain, then they are not exhaustively knowable, because they are not objects of knowledge.

God knows all that is an object of knowledge. But new knowledge is originated when you make certain choices that were previously contingent. Open Theism then does not take away from God's omniscience, since omniscience is knowing all objects of knowledge, yet some things which will be objects of knowledge are not yet objects of knowledge.

Quote:
Omnipresent is 'all present' ie everywhere, but the God of Open Theism is not everywhere, He is just in the 'now'.



God is everywhere that there is to be. Is God present on the Death Star? Not if the Death Star does not exist in reality.

God is present in all of reality. But if the now is the only reality that is reality, God is in all of it. And if the past is no longer a reality, no longer occuring in an alternative dimention, and if the future hasn't happened yet, not occuring in an alternative dimention, it is not taking away from the omnipresence of God to say that He does not dwell in non-realities.

Quote:
Omnipotent is 'all powerful' but the God of Open Theism is not all powerful because there are things beyond His power.



God cannot change His eternal, unchangable attributes. If God's eternal, natural attribute is dwelling in an "eternal now stand-still" realm, He wouldn't be able to change it. And if God's eternal, natural attribute is living in a linear fashion, He wouldn't be able to change it.

But only in the Open Theist view can God have a free-will. Not only would man's free-will be bound by foreknowledge, but God would be bound by foreknowledge.

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge of everything, and His foreknowledge is accurate (which it would be of coarse) then God cannot act contrary to His own foreknowledge, just as man could not act contrary to God's foreknowledge.

But what is free will? Free will is the power of contrary choice. But exhaustive foreknowledge renders such a power a mere apparent ability, but not an actual ability, since no choice could have been contrary to what it was, as God foresaw what it would be.

But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.

 2007/5/12 15:40
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Lazarus1719 wrote:

But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.


That is Molinism, of which, I am in total favore towards.
However, wouldn't what you mentiond be a counterfactual?

Like:
If I did not Eat the cookie that is now gone, then someone else did.
If I had not merried my wife, then someone else would have.

Don't forget [b]Matthew 11:23[/b] [color=990000]for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.[/color]

 2007/5/12 18:29Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Jesse, this might all sound nice on a paper, but it is so fundamentally flawed. First, God is not bound to time as we know it. This is the most powerful argument against Open Theism.

Secondly, if God cannot know the future then why did He predict so many things successfully in OT?

Also, how can your God make the statement "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place."

If Open Theism is correct this this verse should say, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to show to his servants the things that might soon take place depending if certain people do certain things because I can't really know; since man can thwart my plans

You are in error brother, please listen to your friends here at SI.

 2007/5/12 19:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Colossians 2:4-12 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. ((((((Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,)))))) after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


_________________
Phillip

 2007/5/12 19:59Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Psalm 139:4 and 16

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

 2007/5/12 21:08Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.



Jesus did have the ability to call the angels, but He never considered calling them because it was not God's will. Jesus said in John 5:19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."

Jesus was bound by God's plan. Luke 24:26-27 "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

Doesn't sound very contingent...sounds very predetermined. I believe early Christians would agree:

Acts 4
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

"'Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed'--



27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

 2007/5/12 21:24Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Quote:
If God is in the futuer, that would mean that the future exists now in another dimention as Lazarus1719 mentioned.



At what point does the future exsistance start? That statement would have to presume the exsistance of human beings in that dimension. And at what point or increment of time would this type of logic allocate to or for a starting point and a new starting point? It's very core is flawed, good for sci-fi I guess, that's probably why some people live to be in there 100's and other die so early in life, that by and in itself disproves such an idea.BTW God lives outside of time, time is after all part of His creation.


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/5/12 21:26Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I'm not saying hat God is in a nother demention or that He is in the future.
I will say that He know the future as it is now, even though it does not exist yet.

As far as prophecy goes, God eather knows it will happen and ''Declaring the end from the beginning'' or He makes it happen by manipulation.

Quote:
BTW God lives outside of time, time is after all part of His creation


I wouldn't think that time is a creation, it is a mesurment of elapsed happenings(movements).
How would God be outside of a mesurment of that which happens?

Furthermore, man created the way he mesures time based on the movement of the Sun and Earth.
Now, it's based on the atomic vibration of cesium 133 which needs to be reset every now and then because of the slowing down of the Earths spin.

 2007/5/12 22:15Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Quote:
Psalm 139:4 and 16

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Open theisem deminishes God's knowledge, i believe it's a very sophisticated philosophy that tries to explain God and his attributes by siple logic and lieving no room for awe, wonder and for that which is unexplanable.

There are those new theologians who have come with this briliant new idea of God as if it has been hidden for ages and now revealed at the end of times to those who "understand" him by the genuis of their mind.

these "new truths" are like a "new gosple" and "new undertanding of God" i better prefer the old truths that have been revealed since the ancient of times through prophets and apostles and believed by the CHURCH for 2000 years.

If God knows before i speak every word of mine and if he knows all the days of my life before i was born that means he knows my personal future life with all it's choices.

God doesnt live in time only but time lives in God because he is the Author of creation and time.

God is everywhere in time and beyond time and he was there before time came to existence.If God lives only in time it means he is constantly changing himself(what a scary idea), so He is not unchangeable.......away with such philosophy.....God is all perfect in all of his attributes and perfections otherwise he would be a " small god". Let us be careful not to rob God the glory that is due to him.


_________________
Redi

 2007/5/12 23:09Profile





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