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Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 What is a lie?

A while back I was wondering about 'lies'.
We all know we should not lie or bend the truth if we want to follow the Lord.

In John 8:44 it is even stated that the devil is the father of all lies. So we should not want to walk in lies. Now I was wondering about the following:

How about if someone was accused for something and you step in and take the blame, telling that you did it? In short; can you lie to save someones neck or life? Or can one not lie at all?
I'll add in another example, borrowed from the 'how strong is your faith' topic.
In 2 kings 6:19 It seems that Elisha says something which is not true, was he telling a lie for Gods glory?

Thanks for reading!


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2007/5/4 8:37Profile
enid
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Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2673
Nottingham, England

 Re: What is a lie?

A lie for God's glory?

Don't know if we should put it that way, but it looks like it. Or does it?

The Syrians wanted to go to Dothan, vs 13, but after being blinded, which only God could have done in answer to Elisha's prayer, he led them to Samaria, to where, apparently, the king of Israel was, vs 21.

There are instances of lies and deception in the Bible that we do question, but seem to be not wrong in God's eyes.

For instance, Rahab hiding the spies and saying they had left the city, Josh 2.

The old prophet that lied to the man of God, and yet after he lied, he prophesied of the man's death which came to pass, 1 Kings 13.

Jehu acted deceptively in calling together the worshippers of Baal in order to destroy them, 2 Kings 10.

I doubt we will ever understand the way in which God deals with us, even when it seems to go against what He commands.

Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has become His counsellor?

Others will contribute to the discussion and maybe we will get somewhere.

That's all I have for now.

God bless.

 2007/5/4 9:12Profile









 Re:

Christians in Germany during WWII who were hiding Jews lied to the authorities. As enid pointed out, there seems to be a presidence set in scripture where this type of "dishonesty" is acceptable.

The question comes in... where do we draw the line?

When I was in the Marines I remember interrogating Iraqi soldiers who had surrendered to our unit, and being deceitful in our questioning in order to get them to give us information. Now, I wasnt saved at the time, but we did what we did in order to save lives, not destroy them. (depending on your perspective)

Of course, there are those here who think it a sin to even be in the military... but I think you can see what the point is I'm trying to get to here.

I think in regards to this question, one must seek out the Holy Spirit and be convinced in his/her own heart what is the right thing to do. When faced with a situation where deceit may be a viable option, the Holy Spirit will let the child of God know what to do.

I do know one thing for sure... deceit used for selfish gain is never right.

Krispy

 2007/5/4 9:20
butGod
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Joined: 2007/4/29
Posts: 3


 Re:

I don't think lying to cover up your sin is acceptable.
People in denial might use the excuse that it is for God's glory to cover up sin. In fact , you are lying even more.

 2007/5/4 9:41Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: What is a lie?

Quick thought ...

Withholding the truth need not be understood as a lie.

Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
Mar 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
Mar 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.


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Mike Balog

 2007/5/4 9:46Profile









 Re:

Good point, Mike. You're on a roll this morning.

Krispy

 2007/5/4 10:06
suddenly
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Joined: 2007/4/30
Posts: 2


 Re:

Withholding information is not the same as lying.
God ask us to watch our tongue, not ask us to lie.

Lying is a sin, it is within the 10 commendments, are we here trying to comprimise a sin?

 2007/5/4 10:15Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

suddenly wrote:
Withholding information is not the same as lying.
God ask us to watch our tongue, not ask us to lie.

Lying is a sin, it is within the 10 commendments, are we here trying to comprimise a sin?



I find it interesting that in the KJV, he Ninth Commandment is worded "Thou shall not bear [b]false witness[/b]". Kind of creates an illusion to perjury. My understanding of what "false witness" might be, is any communication that fails to accurately portray the facts. Omission could do this as well, if not better that commission.

How does that apply to hiding Jews from Nazis, etc? I'm glad that I am not required to have to apply an answer to that, in my present situation. I do know that withholding information, without hiding the fact, has a price tag attached to it the fear finds hard to tolerate. The ultimate question is, who are we protecting by our deception? If self, then it is definitely sin. However, if another, is it done in the spirit of benevolence, or will we be indirectly gaining from it?

I strongly believe that everything comes back to motivation (which we need to be honest to ourselves about). However, as always, we must remember that "mercy triumphs over judgement". Don't forget that Jesus cited an illustration to the Pharisees, that involved David lying when he said "Go and learn what this means, 'I will have mercy, not sacrifice'."

There is never a need to lower the standard, only to raise the Cross.


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/4 10:35Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quick thought ...

Withholding the truth need not be understood as a lie.

Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
Mar 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
Mar 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.



...an example of withholding the truth, without hiding it. In other words, the hearer knows that they don't have all the facts. This is honest. However, to withhold the fact that your withholding (anyone else's head spinning :-P) is deceptive, because it creates a different impression to what the truth is. Acting on the former, one is always mindful of the fact that there is something that is unknown. Acting on the latter, assumptions can be wrongly made that all is know, when it isn't.

Again I say, "Thou shall not bear false witness".


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/4 10:43Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re: What is a lie?

The most troubling passage on lying in the Bible to me is this one :-

[color=000099]
2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spoke saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. [b]And the LORD said[/b], Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: [b]go out, and do even so.[/b]
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, [b]the LORD hath put a lying spirit[/b] in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
[/color]

The passage doesn't say God lied, but obviously he used a spirit that did to achieve his purpose. Even the vilest creatures will bring glory to God in the end.

Jesus never used a lie, although He did resort to cryptic answers which were obviously going to be misinterpreted by his hearers. (Tear this temple down...)

Perhaps the accounts of lying men of God simply show their human weakness. It doesn't say God endorsed it, even if he didn't rebuke it then and there.

PassingThru



 2007/5/4 10:53Profile





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