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CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
What a sad form of apologetics. You can't prove the existence of God through scientific inquiry. It takes nothing less than revelation.



I think that you are missing the point here, Jimmy. Ray will do almost anything to get an opportunity to preach the gospel. In his book, "The Way of the Master", Ray mentions how he had began going to college campuses to debate atheists about the existence of God. He said that he pays professors for their time, and they in turn try to prove that God doesn't exist, take their money, and run. He then is left with a room full of "atheists", who have just heard his point of how the "Human conscience is evidence of the existence of God", where he takes them through the Law, and points them to the Saviour.

The point isn't the apologetics, but to utilise such a tool to create an opportunity to warn sinners of judgement, and preach the gospel. Come now, when did you last see a faithful gospel presentation in prime time? Surely you can see the genius of this approach?


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/3 20:17Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Good quote:

"Natural religion has no name for God which can bring any hope or comfort to frail, mortal man; nor could man by his own wisdom and searching have attained to the knowledge of any name for the infinite Creator of all things... The Name has to be revealed..."

~ David Baron "Israel in the Plan of God"




I agree, that's a good quote.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/3 20:18Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2772
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: ABC.com to air debate on God online

We should bathe this thing in prayer. Let the word of God be heard!

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/3 20:54Profile
K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 Re:

Before I was a Christian, I heard a really convincing proof of the existence of the God. It is designed for people who believe in the big bang, to show them that even if that were true it is logically impossible without God. It goes like this:

1)All things that began to exist have a cause.
2)The universe began to exist.
3)Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Premise 1 is true, because there aren't any counterexamples. Someone who believes in the big bang wouldn't argue premise 2. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Furthermore, because science claims that at the moment of the big bang, both time and the physical universe were created, the cause must have existed outside of time, and be immaterial - both characteristics of the God of the Bible.

This argument had a huge impact on me, when my faith was in science. I have used it with a number of people at my university who are like I was when witnessing, and it has been really effective to show that there actually are some really good reasons to believe in the God of the Bible.

I wonder if Ray will use something like that.

"What makes more sense? That the world was created by no one out of nothing, or that the world was created by God out of nothing?" -unknown

 2007/5/3 21:21Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

They already have a revelation of God through scientific(observable) inquiry.



General revelation is a true thing, but it is not something you can prove through scientific inquiry. General revelation is something that people more-so naturally intuit as human beings created in the image of God than through interpreting data recorded in an objective manner.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/3 21:26Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

The point isn't the apologetics, but to utilise such a tool to create an opportunity to warn sinners of judgement, and preach the gospel. Come now, when did you last see a faithful gospel presentation in prime time? Surely you can see the genius of this approach?



I understand and am truly sympathetic with such an approach. However, so far as I understand, they are only going on the air to prove through the scientific method that there is a God in a debate with atheists.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/3 21:29Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

K_Day,

I agree with the argument that is made. Such is simply the good ol' "first cause" argument, which has existed for many years now. However, do understand that such an argument, as strong as it is, isn't without a degree of assumption. For the argument of first cause, can only prove that there was some sort of first cause. The argument cannot in and of itself prove what that first cause is. It is our assumption as believers the first cause was God.

However, to the atheist, their assumption is that it was some sort of physical thing. Both are assumptions on our part, and neither is any more "provable" than the other. The logic can only show us that there was a first cause, but not show what that cause was.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/3 21:43Profile
K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 Re:

Quote:
I agree with the argument that is made. Such is simply the good ol' "first cause" argument, which has existed for many years now. However, do understand that such an argument, as strong as it is, isn't without a degree of assumption. For the argument of first cause, can only prove that there was some sort of first cause. The argument cannot in and of itself prove what that first cause is. It is our assumption as believers the first cause was God.



Yeah, thats a good point. Given what atheists believe about the big bang, however, this proved "first cause" would have to exist apart from time and physical matter (since they believe the big bang created both). These two things characterize God, and not anything else I can think of. When the argument was presented to me, that made the assumption that the cause is God a lot easier to accept than anything else.

But your right. Its certainly not without loopholes. I am happy I heard it though!

-K DAY

 2007/5/3 21:49Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Given what atheists believe about the big bang, however, this proved "first cause" would have to exist apart from time and physical matter (since they believe the big bang created both). These two things characterize God, and not anything else I can think of.



Well, not necessarily. The assumption of the atheists is that there has always been something. Thus, the big bang wasn't something out of nothing. They would say that this something, in essence, was always around-- in essence, eternal.

Quote:

When the argument was presented to me, that made the assumption that the cause is God a lot easier to accept than anything else.



I agree.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/3 22:03Profile
K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 Re:

Quote:
Well, not necessarily. The assumption of the atheists is that there has always been something. Thus, the big bang wasn't something out of nothing.



Haha, sounds a bit circular...Not to mention that at this point they do exactly what the criticize Christians of doing - straying away from the scientific method.

Quote:

They would say that this something, in essence, was always around-- in essence, eternal.



Yes, I would say that too . :-D

 2007/5/3 22:14Profile





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