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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Old and New Testament saints: Any difference?

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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

LittleGift wrote:

Quote:
Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.




If by faith we believe, and are saved, how would it be that different for the Old Testament Saints? Did not they believe by faith also?

And yes, they were believing on a promise of the King to Come, and we are believing on that same promise.

Yet, except that the Spirit lodged within them singly, because of their faith, they would be different, in that the Comforter was specifically sent to us in the New Covenant.

So, in that way, they would have had to have greater faith than we do, and greater oneness with God, to have a saving faith that transcended the Laws or Previous Covenants, and do it without the Holy Spirit to help!

I wouldn't like to try it...I'm too used to the help of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/1 8:52Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If the New Covenant was not going to be like the Old Covenant, how would it be different? and if it is different how would that difference affect those who were part of these different covenants?



I think the difference is clearly revealed in verse 33 as quoted in Hebrews 8:10:

For this is the covenant that [u]I[/u] will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; [u]I[/u] will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and [u]I[/u] will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

In another place it says.. and their sins and iniquities [u]I[/u] will remember no more.

This is God doing the work. Not that we don't have a part- but unlike Judaism (as it came to be known and have evolved into this day) God has a central role in the whole process. The Holy Spirit that the people had been resisting would make His abode 'in' the people (John 14). Notice how many times 'better'; is used in Hebrews. Better covenant, better promises, etc. etc. The Old Covenant is far surpassed by the New. Most importantly because provision has been made to transform the people into new creatures.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/1 9:01Profile









 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
What a lovely way of looking at things, to be so at one with the Father that one asks only for what the Father wants, and knows what that is.



Yes

Quote:
But for us, being so untuned to Jesus, even though we have the Spirit in us, and Jesus in us, and we in Jesus, and Jesus in the Father, and the Father in Jesus, and therefore in us, and yet we cannot do this!



But that is what The message of the good news is all about, the enablement to become as He was.... that we become...NOW, as purposed in the Father through Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Is this not why we need the glorified body, that we may commune so freely?



No. Not if it is for now that Jesus spoke of it..

Quote:
For in my own skin, and the weight of me dragging me down, out and away from Jesus and the Spirit, I cannot know in that way.



Crucify it.

 2007/5/1 9:01
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:


Even though Peter was called and had followed Jesus, Peter had not been converted at the time of the events of Matthew 16. Peter was both spiritual minded and carnal minded until his conversion and I will defer too you as to time and place.


Peter is our best example of a double minded person.


Matthew 16: 16-18. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16: 16-18. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I think Peter was more spiritual minded than all the Apostles except John.

Then a few verses later our Lord rebukes him for thinking like a man.

(Matthew 16: 22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Luke 22 (31. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and WHEN THOU ART CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethren


Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/5/1 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rowdy2 wrote:

Even though Peter was called and had followed Jesus, Peter had not been converted at the time of the events of Matthew 16. Peter was both spiritual minded and carnal minded until his conversion and I will defer too you as to time and place.
Eddie



That's right. A doubleminded man is what the word means when referring to purifying the heart.

FWIW Purifying the heart is spoken of as it being in need of being made single in Christ after the born again experience.

Colossians 3:22 (KJV) 3: Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Again, this is what the gospel is all about after one is born again.

 2007/5/1 9:22
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”


God said that before he had entered into any covenant with Abraham.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/1 12:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The first born again believers are found in John 20.22, the indwelling. Therefore, Pentecost was not the born again experience. Pentecost was the receiving of the Promise of the Father; the coming upon of the Holy Spirit to be able/to learn to function in the things of God as Jesus, the man did.


I believe the exact opposite.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/1 12:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Read these three from Oswald Chambers and see how apply to John 17:


Oswald Chambers certainly did not believe what you believe.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/1 12:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That's right. A doubleminded man is what the word means when referring to purifying the heart.


Do you just make these up on the spur of the moment?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/1 12:46Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Like the Hebrew tradition a son can receive his inheritance as soon as he matures and treated as a son. An immature son is treated the same as a
servant until he becomes a man. Don’t touch! Don’t speak!
A son is of the House of David and his birthright entitles him to all the protection mercy and benefits befitting a royal prince.

Galatians 4

1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Eddie


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Eddie

 2007/5/1 12:52Profile





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