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Spitfire
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
Do you not know that when all goes well we experience no need for Him?



No, I didn't know that. I guess I've never experienced pain like you have. Thanks for sharing. Dian.

 2007/5/4 23:16Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Faith

Philologos

Quote:
The fact that he had just come down from the mountain and was in the locality made it possible to actually 'point' to 'this mountain'. He was not, in my view, talking about 'mountaneous problems' but simply revealing the extraordinary power of genuine faith.



Spitfire
Quote:

I believe some people in life are living on a different level of grace than others because they believe what Jesus said.


I don't want to be unbalanced in what I believe. I simply want to think like God thinks and if he says I can do anything, then I want to do it! It's really about taking the limits off of God.

Also, I want to say a word about personal promises. The woman in that video had a personal promise from God which was compelling her to believe that her husband should not die at that time. I believe that, not near enough credence is being given to personal promises. It was a personal promise to Abraham which gave him the faith to believe that he would have a son and the Bible is full of examples of God giving people personal promises which inspire them to faith.



Philologos
Quote:
He was emphasising the dynamic power of genuine faith.

Christ is not trying to get us into the methodology of 'moving mountains' but is speaking to the need of genuine faith, which although tiny in its beginnings is a greater power than we can imagine.




MikeH

Quote:
Did the Lord have faith to move mountains or sycamine trees during His earthly ministry?



Spitfire
Quote:
I honestly feel like there's a general air here on SI of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.



Out of all of these, thought I would take this last one first. Dian, I hope this is more perception than anything. It happens but as a general sentiment ... I don't know sister. Perhaps it is just normal for me to want to defend this ... cause here and when it is attributed to SI as a whole, maybe I want to say, there is too many 'parts'? But with that out of the way and a nod towards understanding certainly ... I am with you dear sister! Just reading and dwelling on the simple mentions from Ron, from yourself ... [i]genuine faith[/i], the [i]power[/i] of this [i]kind[/i] of faith. When Zac Poonen was here recently he was talking about George Mueller and just flatly stated that he didn't have that [i]kind[/i] of faith. Not to categorize 'kind' as a lone, secret substance, just being honest, being honest as you have and asking the question, why do I not have this kind of faith? Without bogging down into the reasons that many of likely have gone to the opposite end of the spectrum because of the abuse of ... speculative faith? Or maybe presumptuous faith, think that is closer to what a lot of the aforementioned styles we are aware of, of the 'health and wealth' variety and so forth.

What I wanted to interject was how there was a sense of excitement in just coming back to the reality of what Jesus meant when He said it. I think both you and Ron agree completely in what is available, there is that seemingly little word that the Lord often used;

[i]If[/i]

Indeed, what [i]if[/i]? What if we truly believed to that fullest possibility? Wouldn't it really just make a great deal of the things that might boggle the natural mind ... well, commonplace? Not in common as in occurrence, but common as in ... He already stated that it would be so and if we had that kind of faith and believed Him then the outcomes would be only a matter of course. It seems the further I go on the dynamics change in perception. To hear the account you brought forth for instance, about the woman carrying around her dead husband, a couple of years ago would have dismissed it before or with perhaps only a little bit of ... '[i]well of course it's possible[/i]" and with the brain musing "not likely, but possible". The difference now is not in the validity ... but in the possibility and the "of course" is reversed. It just naturally follows. Hope that makes sense, it is not to get bogged down into semantics and trying to unravel everything nor to just accept everything without question ... these things begin to grow old and weary when usually, if they are not local, the person unknown, all the things telling of character and integrity, etc. etc. there is no way of knowing. It's just beyond that.

My all time favorite still is just this example and where I would draw in MikeH's quote from above;

[i]And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.[/i] Luk 8:43-48

It is not that the Lord 'has faith' or needs faith to do anything (sorry MikeH, I am not inferring anything here). He knew full well Who He was ... Trying to stay on track here ... It is just this kind of faith that always pleased the Lord and goes way beyond the cerebral. The woman who touched Him, touched Him with her faith and we have likely all heard a variety of messages that stem off of that, the ones I recall (not here particularly) just seem to glide past that though. She most certainly made physical contact with Jesus as that was her faith that was driving her "[i]If only ...[/i]"
Which comes from Mark's telling of it (Interesting how these two accounts have blended together through the years, even subconsciously). The perception I would gather from this is if she would have been half-hearted in her desire (faith) to touch Jesus and be healed, the disciples would have been right in their reasoning [i]"the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?[/i]" and the Lord would never had even taken any notice, she being any different than anyone else pressing against him as he moved through the crowds.

But then the greatest part is that profound and faith provoking statement;

[i]Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.[/i]

Could it be said here that it also just ... naturally follows? It is quite profound and incredible and begs for better adjectives. This is faith at it's purest, deepest ... [i]spiritual[/i] level. He did not see her, but He felt her, not her physical grab, but her tremendous faith, faith that would not give up until it reached it's objective. On the flip side, she felt that she had to ... [i]feel[/i], truly touch Him physically and was obviously convinced so, how she had no idea that it wasn't' that holding on, laying her physically touch that drew out from the Lord .... Beautiful paradox! It just gets to words unspeakable to dwell on how she afterwards [i]came trembling[/i] ... What must have been going through her mind ... This is a very humbling and beautiful thing to look at and dwell on, how far from where many would take this incredible incident and make ... I cannot go there with it.

All the instances that pleased the Lord, "Great faith", the centurion got it, in other words recognized who Jesus was. There is so much that is behind His words, the things that show forth, it is something I have been giving a great deal of thought towards. Last night I was musing on how all His recorded words were by others and how incredibly impossible it would be for these mere men to ... "build a character" if I could put it that way. Jesus 'spoke with authority' and even His silence spoke with authority, it is so far past us and I often marvel at how the distilling of His words can just exceed ... what is back of them all. To put it another way, for the redeemed, that truly know the Lord He could walk through a similar thronging crowd now and many would have not the faintest idea if they did not know Him or know that he was there in their midst, but for the redeemed we would know instantly .. even if we couldn't see Him for the crowd. We would surely know it.

A little diversion there, but this matter of faith needs a whole lot more investigation on our part I believe. Not the abuses and all the rest, but like Dian, like Ron mentioned ... there is a great deal here we have hardly begun to tap into.


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Mike Balog

 2007/5/5 0:44Profile
Spitfire
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Posts: 633


 Re: Faith

Quote:
Indeed, what if? What if we truly believed to that fullest possibility? Wouldn't it really just make a great deal of the things that might boggle the natural mind ... well, commonplace?



This is all I've been trying to say. I believe. I want to believe more. I want to have the kind of faith when I [u][i][b]KNOW[/b][/i][/u] that God has spoken something to my heart, that, I refuse to give up, but I press through the throng until I've touched Him. I don't want to be moved by the way things look in the natural or by human logic or reasoning, but I want to be moved by one thing..."God said".

I believe we've come to accept things the way they are just a little too good. We are created in God's image and as those who have been accepted into God's family, then we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. He raised people from the dead.

Heck, Paul raised a man from the dead who simply fell asleep and fell out of a window. Paul just didn't want that to be the gossip going around about his meetings..."Oh, don't go hear Paul speak cause he's so boring someone fell asleep and fell out of a window and died." ;-)

I've tried to raise a dead dog. We loved him and didn't want him to die. He died anyway. So, ok, I'm still gonna try to raise things from the dead. Maybe someday...

Quote:
this matter of faith needs a whole lot more investigation on our part I believe.



That's all I've been trying to say. Someone asked the question, "What do you think about Andrew Wommack?", and I said, "he believes what he's saying more than anyone I've ever heard and he has made me think long and hard about who I am in Christ." I respect the man for that. He may be wrong about alot of things, but I respect the fact that a good thing (for me) has come out of listening to his messages.

Mikey, bless you. What you said..."what he said". Love, Dian.

 2007/5/5 7:00Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Faith

Quote:
Peter just didn't want that to be the gossip going around about his meetings..."Oh, don't go hear Peter speak cause he's so boring someone fell asleep and fell out of a window and died."



Only that was Paul sister :-)
Quote:
but I want to be moved by one thing..."God said".



Yes! Absolutely, had gone off on a ramble recently on just these two words. This is our great dilemma and problem. It's not ten thousand other things and perhaps it's the unfortunate part of so much poor, exaggerated preaching and teaching, presumption upon the Lord that makes for new homes and cars and shiny objects that we are compelled to have a great disclaimer over everything, a preface to dislodge ... [i]pure faith[/i] from all the shenanigans. It is to set all that aside, or perhaps get it out of the way and state; where does this leave us now?

Unbelief is a great killer. Putting all kinds of presupposings into the rational aspect ... Ah, how to grapple with this out-loud? There may be much more to your mention of throwing the baby out with the bath water than I know. We may unconsciously be dumbing down or making things more manageable as either a buttress against the modern days penchant for faith as a means to a selfish end, for trinkets ultimately that rust and perish ... it is not to wholesale dismiss all these things completely either, [i]the Father knows that you have need of these things[/i] just as making them central... faith as utility, God as utilitarian (Paris Reidhead).

You mentioned your dog, likewise my mothers recent death. Siting on her death bed I prayed that simple prayer, "Lord, you could raise her right back to life again". In that clear moment, the thoughts weren't towards doubt's and confusion or systematically dissecting everything ... it was just left as an unfinished thought and utterance. It repeated itself in a variety of ways even after she had been embalmed! Recall thinking ... wouldn't that be something!

It is here where the great proscription and warning against presumption comes into play;

[i]Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. [/i] Jas 4:13-15

This isn't a matter of doubting. What strikes me is how much ... that strikes us never disheveled the apostles after the Lord had risen and they ha both seen the Lord risen again and were filled with His Holy Spirit. In a sense it is to say "We have seen everything there is to be seen" And they didn't need to presume one way or the other ... [i]it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us[/i]. It was a settled matter. If it was the Lords will, very well, if not, very well, just as well! I think this is where the whole grievous idea of smiting the sheep for their unbelief and lack of faith goes off the rails, especially in the 'name and claim it', prosperity realms. To guilt people into fault and invert doubts ... it's purely manipulation and highly diabolical. See, even here the disclaimers seem to have to come in, this low level of Christendom has just integrated itself into the fabric

Recall talking with my dad shortly after my Ma departed her wracked physical confines and telling him I had prayed that the Lord would take her from her misery and he said, 'I prayed that He would heal her'. and I quickly added 'Oh, but of course Pa, I did as well, absolutely ... but I also had to pray that it be the Lords will, that if He would not heal her than to take her to Himself." This wasn't a 'covering the bases' ... I just had the thought somewhere in the background of ..[i]The Lord has need of her[/i]"... I don't know particularly why, but that was the thought. The thing about it was ... it was beautiful. Peaceful. This peculiar, sweet, settled confidence, even if it was to be later mingled with some sadness and mourning. It came up at the grave site... "Even now Lord ... you could ..." and again a month later visiting the location and attending my co-workers young son's funeral ... "Both of them Father ...". Maybe all I am trying to express here is ... it's a settled matter. Hanging around, praying, gazing out on the vast field of departed people. Dead people, this stark reality ... the saints buried there ... [i]the day[/i], that incredible and indescribable day. How it might play out ... pondered the idea of dirt and lawn just exploding and flying everywhere, caskets being flung open ... fantastical? absurd? [i]Possible?[/i] There is that account ...

[i]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.[/i] Mat 27:51


Yeah, surely we 'know all these things" and in certain circumstances it is far easier to believe and have 'great faith' than others. And it is here where the rubber truly meets the road. In everyday common circumstances why am I unable to have this same [i]kind[/i] of faith? I despise 'blame' as a cop out, as an excuse and surely there are factors that make things more difficult. I know it has been touched on here in the past, the idea that because we are much more comfortable and by and large 'well off' by way of comparison ... "Great faith" is not always ... 'needed' if I can put that the right way, with the right intention. Those that are under persecution, that have little to nothing, are in all kinds of dire circumstances ... I do believe it is true that the reason we don't hear of the truly 'miraculous' in the Western world is because we haven't been put to the test of true, utter dependence and just as well, why the reports that often come from our realm have that tinge of "manufacturing" attached to it, along with all the associated baggage that the pundits world shout loudly as "proof", as Ron mentioned a bit earlier here.

Started to mention this elsewhere, atmosphere. My work environment for instance. It's pleasant, absurd and ridiculous the sheer amount of things that need to be done, but pleasant enough. Everyone is busy. The people are 'good' in the right sense, morally outwardly, by conduct and all that ... yes, I realize they are predominantly evil, sinners and heathens at heart. Little gossip for the most part, at least that that I am aware of. It's a great place, I love it, love the people, love working there a whole cross section of cultures and backgrounds, people from all over the world, all kinds of personalities. But for all that the atmosphere is one that is still [i]opposed[/i] to having God in it's midst. It's a business. It is a great struggle to ... have put it this way before ...[i]bring my faith to work[/i] not the notion that has it the other way around, that of 'evangelizing the work place' and all that. What I mean is, from here. from fellowship with the saints, from the prayer closet and then out that door into 'the world' ... well it's [i]their world[/i] (again a redundant thought expressed elsewhere). In some ways and very carefully will I put it, it can be more difficult for us to fight against these forces, this atmosphere that ... doesn't 'need God', doesn't acknowledge Him ... back of everything. It's enough to want to flee to become a monk at times, just to get away from the atmosphere, to concentrate fully on the Lord, to have that certainty of doing something [i]for[/i] Him rather than seemingly going through the motions ... But, I also know far better than all that. There is good reason for all this, I may not be able to articulate it adequately or even have the foggiest idea what it is all leading to but there are hints along the way. A great deal of it is character aspects, I can tell much more by all the failures and reminders on a day to day basis. A lot of crafting and chiseling and testing, how the responding goes in challenging circumstances, in being patronized and belittled at times ... even how the challenge of perception of those things, my [i]own presumptions[/i] of those things, of others. I work with some very, very intelligent people, far beyond me in their areas of expertise. It makes for a whole lot of holding the tongue or rather, [i]ought to[/i], some progress I pray along these lines. At the least, to dispel the thoughts of assuming as soon as they begin to rear heir ugly head ... it is possible to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in tension without coming to a fixed and complete conclusion. Well this is quite the ramble again. But to have faith out there in everyday practical circumstances I am finding very difficult indeed ... there is still too much 'I can't' that intrudes into the daily life, too little faith in practical matters...


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Mike Balog

 2007/5/5 9:44Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
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 Re:

Dian,

I understand your concern...you want a faith that is vibrant, that gets things done. And what child of God does NOT want this? However, it seems to me you may be a tad bit too concerned about raising the dead as a check point in determining whether a person has faith. Now in this I would be so very cautious. I have heard of people who had near death experiences and had to battle depression [later] because they came back. They could not understand why the LORD would not allow them to stay. Dian, I would not for anything want to impose this upon anyone. Death is here to stay: this we must accept.

After Regina died I had two deams about her: that she had returned. Now this was as real as could be. I saw her walking towards me. I said:"Gina! You're back!" She replied, "No, Mom, I am not coming back!" And I respond with deep sobs. Life is too difficult here. So when one goes on to be with the LORD, don't try to bring them back here! Dian, if I were to die and someone would resurrect me, I would not be all that happy, I am sure! I want to stay with my LORD! I have lived, worked for him and please do not deny me my wages when it is due!

But to have faith to remove mountains: I have never had this kind. Yet when we study the WORD we can see where the impetus to do a miracle came when the worker was walking close with God. We also read in 1Corinthians 12:10 that miracle-working is a gift. If you ain't got it, don't sweat it. On the other hand, I read where mircles are common in third world countries. If we study the context, the entire scriptures, miracles are done with only one purpose: to honor and glorify God. How many modern miracle-workers in the western world will go on TV to promote themselves, the miracle after something spectaular occurs? Americans are too proud, work too hard to be in the limelight, displacing God as the sole authority for life: have substituted logic, reasoning for his clear teachings/directives.

Somehow I get the feeling that once we are so close in walking with God our focus will not be on miracles but to be with HIM in service. In being close to him I get the mental picture of a child who is walking with his/her daddy, arms around each other and the child matching his stride with his fathers'. Are we doing the same? I suspect if this were the case, the importance of miracles would diminish but would be replaced by love as described in 1 Cor. 13.

Good thread, Dian.

Blessings,

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/5/5 9:57Profile
Syl
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Joined: 2007/9/25
Posts: 4


 Re: Being born again

Hello this is my first time writing on anything on the web, but I'm desperately wanting to converse about deep spiritual things of Our Lord. On Nov 4th 2005 I surrendered my whole life to Jesus Christ and I am so gratefull to the Father for sending Him to earth to atone for our sins. These past two years have been dificult because I knew something awsome had happened to me, I had no one who really undrestood, what a miricle it was for me to have God change my heart the way He did, I even had someone at church tell me that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, mind you that I told no one that I had seen an angel. I am so in love with Jesus and everything about Him that His unconditional love for me made me love others even the ones that I used to hate before. Someone that has had a regenerated heart from God please write me.


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Sylvia Elizondo

 2007/9/25 15:43Profile
Syl
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Joined: 2007/9/25
Posts: 4


 Re: Adrew Wommack

I had been listening to Andrew Wommack off and on for about 5 months and I used to fall asleep so good listening to him, because the natural man cannot persive spiritual truths, but I was searching for God with all of my heart and He knows this, that on Nov 4, 2005 Andrew was preaching, just sitting on a chair and not shouting like some other preachers. He said that Jesus said we had to be born again to see the kingdom of God, and I knew that I had not been born again, let's not be stupid and ignorant that we should know when we haven't been born again. So I prayed to God in my own living room and prayed the most selfish prayer a human being can pray. God if you change my Husband, kids and so and so I'll be happy, I was serious. And I heard a voice deep within me that was not mine and it was not audible say "Child you should change" I asked "What" then I heard it again, that's when I raised up my arms and said "Lord Jesus change me", and imediatelly I was in the Lords presence, and being in His presence and HOLYNESS, because that is what He is. I felt my shame and rotteness that you have to ask for forgiveness and the rest is history. So don't knock some evangelists on tv they are not all bad.


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Sylvia Elizondo

 2007/9/25 16:07Profile
Syl
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Joined: 2007/9/25
Posts: 4


 Re:

Hello Dian,
I agree with you I just became a born again beliver and I have been meeting professing Christians that say they have a relationship with Christ and they are so mean and negative all they do is complain instead of praising God for being so good to us that enables us to love with perfect love.


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Sylvia Elizondo

 2007/9/25 16:17Profile
changed4ever
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Joined: 2008/1/26
Posts: 4
melbourne, victoria.australia

 Re:

i have been listening to andrew wommack for almost a year. He has changed my life. He revolutionized my walk with the Lord. I am healed of depression, discouragement, and doubt. Praise God someone is willing to stand up and tell it like it is. He is the ONLY one who does not charge for the Gospel. A first!! in my 20 year walk.


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christine thompson

 2008/1/26 0:24Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
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 Re:

Quote:

vico wrote:
AAAAAHHHHH!!!!

but a lot of people are falling for this health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. This is definitely dangerous stuff.



Yea your right! this is definitely dangerous stuff I would rather attend a Church that teaches we should be Sick, Poor and also teaches the good old Downtrodden or Oppression Gospel, now that is what Jesus taught right? :-(


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Bill

 2008/1/26 0:58Profile





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