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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It appears to me that it was God’s purpose and plan to keep the majority of the 1st Century Jews from believing on Jesus. He did this in order to bring salvation to the Gentiles.



Paul anticipated this thought:

Rom 11:19-20

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21-23
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, [u]if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.[/u]

Notice [i]why[/i] they were broken off... "because of unbelief they were broken off...", Paul said. And they also, [u]if[/u] they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." This seems clearly to be a decision on their part. Yet when they shall turn to the Lord the veil shall be removed.

The issue at hand is no different than when Moses came down form the mountain. They did not desire to look to see the fullness of the Glory of God within the Law. They could not handle the 'light' coming off the revelation at Sinai. The people simply did not want the 'Glory'- the tangible evidence of the presence of God. Give me the book- but keep the Glory at a safe distance. They had turned from God Himself in putting the veil on Moses' face. We don't want to see you God!

2 Cor 3:12-18

[u]Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:[/u]

13 And [i]not as Moses[/i], which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 [u]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.[/u]

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The parables, so it seemed, not "great plainess of speech" were merely an audible manifestation of the vailed word; shielded from manifesting it's full glory. Why? they would not turn to the Lord. Lord? What Lord? And the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. Yet, they did always resist the Holy Ghost. They would not stop resisting the Holy Ghost so they were taught appropriately. This is a fearful thought! Can a person resist the Holy Ghost and hear anything clearly from God?




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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 21:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.



It was not given to them because they did always resist the Holy Ghost. If they had turned to God, the vail had been removed from their hearts and they could have been grafted in to the olive tree again. It was up to them.

What did they do? They took their religion after the Temple was destroyed and the priesthood gone and developed a religion that could exist without the tangible presence of God. We know it, as [i]Rabbinic Judaism[/i]. They got to the point when not any sign from God was allowed to speak into their lives. Not an audible voice from heaven or a dream or a Prophet. They said God had already spoken and now the Rabbi's are in authority to reveal what He has said. I have said that if the vail on their hearts has a physical symbol it would be the Talmud. It is interesting to note that my instructor that was formerly Orthodox Jew went into a Pentecostal meeting and sensed the presence of God. It was [i]that[/i] awareness that caused Him to turn to God and believe on Christ. He said once that he did not know what everything meant that was going on; but that he knew that God was there.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 21:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.



It was not given to them because they did always resist the Holy Ghost. If they had turned to God, the vail had been removed from their hearts and they could have been grafted in to the olive tree again. It was up to them.

What did they do? They took their religion after the Temple was destroyed and the priesthood gone and developed a religion that could exist without the tangible presence of God. We know it, as [i]Rabbinic Judaism[/i]. They got to the point when not any sign from God was allowed to speak into their lives. Not an audible voice from heaven or a dream or a Prophet. They said God had already spoken and now the Rabbi's are in authority to reveal what He has said. I have said that if the vail on their hearts has a physical symbol it would be the Talmud. It is interesting to note that my instructor that was formerly Orthodox Jew went into a Pentecostal meeting and sensed the presence of God. It was [i]that[/i] awareness that caused Him to turn to God and believe on Christ. He said once that he did not know what everything meant that was going on; but that he knew that God was there.

Sounds like many churches and denominations these days! Nothing new under the sun! Jewish human nature is no worse than anyone else's human nature.

Would we have reacted the same way, not been able to bear the nearness of God? I suspect so...

Jeannette

 2007/4/28 21:22
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
" Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’



Today [i]if[/i] you will hear hear voice harden not your heart. The Jews were said by Stephen to have "uncircumcised ears". Moses gives a clue:

Deut 29:1-4

These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;

3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:

4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Obedience is required if ever we are to expect God to reveal things to us. The people were a 'stiffnecked people' and we see the results. God did not give them a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear. Why? They were always in rebellion against the Holy Spirit. Going back to people saying they don't 'understand' the Bible. They never will until they cease turning from God. When they turn to Him- He lifts the vail. Seems almost to be an axiom of scripture; turn and you will see, hear, and understand.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 21:29Profile









 Re:

RobertW said:

Quote:
It is interesting to note that my instructor that was formerly Orthodox Jew went into a Pentecostal meeting and sensed the presence of God. It was that awareness that caused Him to turn to God and believe on Christ. He said once that he did not know what everything meant that was going on; but that he knew that God was there.

What a lovely testimony! The grace of God starting with Israel which rejected it; going to the Gentiles, and then returning full circle to bless and save.

Rather similar to the fact that Missionaries from developing countries are coming to bring the Gospel back to places like apostate Britain and America, which first sent missioneries to them!

Of course Israel is a special case in its significance in the world, in history, and in the purposes of God. He always intended to bless the world through Abraham, and He did it this way, by blinding them in part "until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in".

Jeannette

 2007/4/28 21:31
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
These verses hint on a lack of repentance and an unwillingness to know the truth about God. If a person doesn't desire God, nor have the humility to recognize their position of absolute nakedness and need before God, then the person isn't (yet) a candidate for salvation, nor revelation.



I think this is well said. I know it sounds harsh, but it seems that God has set things up in such a way that if we are not willing to love Him then we cannot progress in any revelation. No revelation- no salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. God just seems to want folk who truly love Him and He has some powerful means of revealing if we do or don't. He also has some powerful ways of revealing HIS love that we might reciprocate.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 21:35Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
These verses hint on a lack of repentance and an unwillingness to know the truth about God. If a person doesn't desire God, nor have the humility to recognize their position of absolute nakedness and need before God, then the person isn't (yet) a candidate for salvation, nor revelation.



I think this is well said. I know it sounds harsh, but it seems that God has set things up in such a way that if we are not willing to love Him then we cannot progress in any revelation. No revelation- no salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. God just seems to want folk who truly love Him and He has some powerful means of revealing if we do or don't. He also has some powerful ways of revealing HIS love that we might reciprocate.




No, not unwilling to love, for many, like myself, did not know how to love when I sought God, but that I was willing to listen, and study it, until I was convinced.

The Sanhedrin, and many others simply would not even listen, to see if what Jesus said was truthful or not.

And these men knew, or should have known, that the Messiah was due then. It's plain enough in Daniel. Others, like Simeon, were literally hanging on by their last breath to see Jesus born. Yet those that followed the Law would not even consider the idea of Grace.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/29 13:49Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

RobertW wrote:

Quote:
I think this is well said. I know it sounds harsh, but it seems that God has set things up in such a way that if we are not willing to love Him then we cannot progress in any revelation. No revelation- no salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. God just seems to want folk who truly love Him and He has some powerful means of revealing if we do or don't. He also has some powerful ways of revealing HIS love that we might reciprocate.



Robert, I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom on this matter in your previous posts, it has helped me understand many things!


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/4/29 14:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
And these men knew, or should have known, that the Messiah was due then. It's plain enough in Daniel. Others, like Simeon, were literally hanging on by their last breath to see Jesus born. Yet those that followed the Law would not even consider the idea of Grace.



Yes, this is very true. It is strange how this played out individually and among the various groups. The Messianic concepts of the first century had some looking for a Messiah like David and yet others a suffering Messiah. The consistent view which plays out beyond the writings of the NT such as Josephus' writings is that the Messiah would be a deliverer. Gamaliel even compared the followers of Jesus to the followers of other would be "Messiah's".

Acts 5:36-37

6 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

Messianic expectations were HIGH in Galilee, especially. The Romans were dealt a lot of grief as a result. This helps understand Mark 14:70:

And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto..

The TR includes the little snippet at the end... thy [i]speech agreeth thereto[/i]. If an American showed up in London and said, "I'm not an American!" his 'speech' or 'talk' would be a dead give away. Same goes vice versa. The Galileans had a manor of speaking and Peter no doubt had this accent/mannerism. That is where they were from. Peter knew what happened to Judas of Galilee. And his attitude shortly before was no different. This is why he pulled out his sword to fight.

It was the Messianic hopes and expectations that led to fight after fight in Israel until the Romans finally banished all Jews from Israel and renamed the area Palestine in retribution and Jerusalem [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Capitolina]Aelia Capitolina. [/url]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/29 16:40Profile





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