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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Adam, Was he created "independent man"?

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 Re:

Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.

 2007/4/25 9:56
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2763
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Adam, Was he created "independent man"?

Quote:
What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?



I believe your question here may just be an extension of thought from the Total Depravity thread and that this question perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of what Total Depravity is.

My understanding (limited as it is) of Total Depravity is that our whole being (will, heart, mind, body) is corrupted. It says that, as a result of the Fall, sin is something in our very nature and that we are sinful apart from our actions.

However, being thus corrupted does not mean that we can no longer make choices, or our heart can no longer feel, or our mind can no longer think. These faculties remain, but the governing principle behind them is now depraved. Depravity simply means that mankind has no inclination to redeem itself.

This doesn't mean that man can't do good things or take civil actions or take even good external religious actions but Scripture does seem to make it clear that no unregenerate person can do any act that is acceptable with God (see Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6).

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/4/25 10:24Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I'm finished, Been. I won't chase your rabbits. You figure it out from here.

Perhaps someone has something they would like to contribute. If not then I will let the thread die; chaulk it off to it being a poor question.



Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.




Why are you acting like this? If you honestly don't have an attitude problem, please try to express yourself in a manner that reflects your attitude. I understand completely that is hard to do, but things like this just don't need to be said.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/4/25 10:27Profile









 Re:

Simply, I don't appreciate going in circles with someone who doesn't wish to pay attention to what is written but would rather seek to find in my wording something to accuse, because I don't line up with their persuasion. That is not fair nor is it good Christian dialogue.

I was already accused of being a Buddhist by this person and more followed without any further questioning except leading questions that would sidetrack the discussion. It is already so far off topic because of this person that it may not get back on track.

Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?

 2007/4/25 10:59









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?



I believe your question here may just be an extension of thought from the Total Depravity thread and that this question perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of what Total Depravity is.

My understanding (limited as it is) of Total Depravity is that our whole being (will, heart, mind, body) is corrupted. It says that, as a result of the Fall, sin is something in our very nature and that we are sinful apart from our actions.



The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.

Quote:
However, being thus corrupted does not mean that we can no longer make choices, or our heart can no longer feel, or our mind can no longer think.



Ok. What you just posited was that man could choose God. To that, I agree.

Quote:
These faculties remain, but the governing principle behind them is now depraved.



How so??? You mean you can't genuinely love your kids, wife, et al, would not lay down your life for them? Depravity says you wouldn't, so there is something radically wrong with your understanding or that presented for us to accept as gospel truth.

Quote:
Depravity simply means that mankind has no inclination to redeem itself.



Again, who says this except it is from commentary and not the word of God. Sorry, but I don't find it in His word.

Quote:
This doesn't mean that man can't do good things or take civil actions or take even good external religious actions but Scripture does seem to make it clear that no unregenerate person can do any act that is acceptable with God (see Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6).



That could erradicate the sin of Adam's trangression is all your above refers to and to what I whole heartly agree. Thus, the distinction needs be made between Sin and sins. Sins we have everything to do with; we are responsible for them, Adam's Sin, we do not. Only Jesus could and did handle that one. Thank God!!

That leaves us now with the reason for creation and begs the question would Christ still have come to Earth if Adam would not have transgressed? Would the cross still be necessary in that scenario?
:-)

 2007/4/25 11:33
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2763
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.



I can't speak for others here but I can say that you haven't proven it to me. Perhaps the term is not directly found in Scripture, the same can be said for the term 'Trinity', and yet the both doctrines are built upon the careful study of many verses.

Quote:
How so??? You mean you can't genuinely love your kids, wife, et al, would not lay down your life for them? Depravity says you wouldn't, so there is something radically wrong with your understanding or that presented for us to accept as gospel truth.



Again, I think you're misunderstanding Total Depravity. As I said before it does not mean that we cannot perform natural good. It does mean that our good deeds fall far short of the goal. It means we all flunked the course, we all got 'F's' so to speak. So, as an example, it doesn't matter that you got 40% of the test right(you loved your kids) and I got 20% right(I didn't love my kids), we both flunked.

Quote:
That could erradicate the sin of Adam's trangression is all your above refers to and to what I whole heartly agree. Thus, the distinction needs be made between Sin and sins. Sins we have everything to do with; we are responsible for them, Adam's Sin, we do not. Only Jesus could and did handle that one. Thank God!!



I may be mistaken but I believe this was the error of Pelagianism, perhaps some others could help here.

Quote:
That leaves us now with the reason for creation and begs the question would Christ still have come to Earth if Adam would not have transgressed? Would the cross still be necessary in that scenario?



Certainly the principle of the cross (some call it the way of the cross) and conformity to the image of Christ has always been in view (see Ephesians 1:4-5 & Romans 8:29). It is the driving principle within the Godhead and is intended to be the principle operating within man. It is the principle of living by, for, and unto Another. The work of the cross was necessary to deal a death blow to the fallen race of Adam. The way of the cross which the new man daily embraces, is an eternal principle. The historic cross was needed because Adam chose not to embrace that principle of the cross.

Although this principle of the eternal Cross is everywhere written into the very fabric of the universe, blinded man, limited by sin and his natural senses, could not understand the Cross-principle of self-giving without an outward demonstration.

For this very reason the Father robed His Son in human flesh and sent Him to walk among men.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/4/25 12:45Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ormly,

From the beginning, I asked...

Quote:
I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas?



Finally, you have answered in truth:

Quote:
I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.



I also think you have mistaken me. I have not accused you of anything. Who am I to accuse anyone? I am nothing. This is what I said:

Quote:
Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism.



This was said for your benefit, in hopes that you might be inclined to see if it is true. By researching Buddhism, you might see how Christ was different.

Quote:
Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?



Because Ormly, we are speaking of an essential Christian doctrine. There is only one way to see it. Jesus Christ came to save people who could not save themselves. Humanity is incapable. There is no way, no possibility, apart from Jesus Christ for anyone to be righteous. Only He is righteous.

You can argue, debate, question, propose all that you want. But anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior believes that Jesus Christ is the only way.

SermonIndex in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16222&forum=16&0]Statement of Faith[/url] says this: "all human beings are dead in sin and utterly lost"

This is what it means to be a Christian. We believe that we are completely and utterly lost without Christ.

R.C. Sproul said this in His book [url=http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html]"Essential Truths of the Christian Faith"[/url]:

"For total depravity means that I and everyone else are depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin."

In Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/25 13:21Profile









 Re:

Dear Been, I am 60+ years a born again Christian.

 2007/4/25 13:44









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.



I can't speak for others here but I can say that you haven't proven it to me. Perhaps the term is not directly found in Scripture, the same can be said for the term 'Trinity', and yet the both doctrines are built upon the careful study of many verses.



Then I invite you to reveal any scripture that remotely states man could not turn to God without the need of some special grace given him to persuade him or otherwise cause him to have faith or anything else necessary in order that he might.
You speak of context and I will hold you to that as a prerequisite for any scripture you wish me to embrace as your evidence. OK?

Twisting my words is a no-no.

 2007/4/25 13:53
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ormly,

I am sorry if you feel as though I am questioning your salvation. That is not my intention or my place.

*edit*

I think I have said enough. I will leave.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/25 14:00Profile





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