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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

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 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
2Ch 24:19 Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they [b]would not[/b] give ear.

2Ch 33:10 And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they [b]would not[/b] hearken.

Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they [b]would not[/b] hear.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye [b]would not![/b]

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and [b]ye would not![/b]



You have offered up a few "would not" verses but I don't read any "could not" verses.

Your other verses are N/A.

 2007/4/24 5:21
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Was Noah righteous before God chose him to build the Ark?


I see that this was a response to a question about Abraham, so let's return to him...
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
(Rom 4:2-5 KJVS)The whole point of this illustration is to show that God justifies the 'ungodly' and that righteousness was 'reckoned' [u]to[/u] Abraham and not achieved [u]by[/u] him.

Justification is the judge's declaration of 'righteous' in respect of the charges against him.

Why would there be any need to 'reckon' Abraham as righteous if he had achieved 'righteousness'. The 'reckoned' righteousness would be superfluous.

It is recorded of Noah...Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. ... which is again specifically declared to be, not the righteousness of achievement, but the righteousness which is by faith'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/4/24 6:55Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: In Regards to the concept of "Total Depravity"

Acts 13:37. But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Romans 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Hebrews 3: 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 9:1. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4. Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5. And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Ormly, nice to meet you. Is this what you are looking for?

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/24 8:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Was Noah righteous before God chose him to build the Ark?


I see that this was a response to a question about Abraham, so let's return to him...
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
(Rom 4:2-5 KJVS)The whole point of this illustration is to show that God justifies the 'ungodly' and that righteousness was 'reckoned' [u]to[/u] Abraham and not achieved [u]by[/u] him.

Justification is the judge's declaration of 'righteous' in respect of the charges against him.

Why would there be any need to 'reckon' Abraham as righteous if he had achieved 'righteousness'. The 'reckoned' righteousness would be superfluous.

It is recorded of Noah...Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. ... which is again specifically declared to be, not the righteousness of achievement, but the righteousness which is by faith'.



Which is unto salvation that only God can impart and not the righteousness evoked from Abraham by/because of his believing from his life experiences, that lead to the eventual impartation of the righteousness of God.

 2007/4/24 9:02









 Re:

Yes, Forrest, The "could not's" were the result of the "would not's"

Nice to meet, too.

Many times God said, "if you are willing......"

 2007/4/24 9:08
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Total Depravity

And so many still will not, mores the pity!

Anyway, will not is a refusal, can not is an inability, and that was built in once Adam and Eve ate the wrong fruit.

Oh, for a glorified body...I wish I didn't have to wait, and that Adam hadn't been hungry that day.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/24 9:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
And so many still will not, mores the pity!

Anyway, will not is a refusal, can not is an inability, and that was built in once Adam and Eve ate the wrong fruit.

Oh, for a glorified body...I wish I didn't have to wait, and that Adam hadn't been hungry that day.

Blessings,

Forrest



But that is the error, isn't it, that we assume that it was built in and then build a whole doctrine upon that assumption. In light of scripture, in the whole, it can't be seen as something as a built in. We need to see this and begin the view the Bible in fresh light. Re-read my first and show where what I stated was in error. When you have then re-read all the letters of Paul keeping all this in mind.

 2007/4/24 9:44
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Total Depravity

Ormly,

We are talking about the sin principle, that Adam and Eve were changed from their former glorious state, chased out of the Garden of Eden, themselves and their descendants cursed for the disobedience they did in eating the fruit that was forbidden, the earth cursed to be less productive.

Adam and Eve, compared to us, were already in a glorified state, in which they could walk and talk with God, which presumes the ability to even see Him!

And what a fall the Fall was. Look around you. You will see the inbuilt weakness towards sin in the youngest children.

And I have read Romans, and studied it, it being my favorite book in the Bible, for it explains Matthew, Mark, Luke and John better than they do themselves.

We don't assume that we were cursed from Paul. It's in Genesis!

So is the transfer of dominion of the earth from Adam to Lucifer, while Christ took it back on the Cross!

Why do you look in Romans for what is so plainly stated elsewhere? Are you not complicating your own road? For no assumption was made by anyone in Genesis. It is plainly stated.

One needs no doctrine for what is already written plainly and simply.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/24 10:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Which is unto salvation that only God can impart and not the righteousness evoked from Abraham by/because of his believing from his life experiences, that lead to the eventual impartation of the righteousness of God.


Excuse me?
How can righteousness be evoked?
What does 'believing from his life experiences' mean?
How could 'believing from this life experiences' 'lead to the eventual impartation of the righteousness of God'?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/24 10:36Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
What makes anyone believe that no one could be righteous after the fall of Adam. His disobedience didn't strip him of his ability to be righteous.



What is righteousness?

The problem is that humanity tries to create a sense of righteousness apart from God. Righteousness is simply what God says is right. Whatever God says.....that is righteousness. It is God's choice.

Let me explain. When God created everything, afterward He "saw that it was good." Six times in Genesis, we see this said: Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25. This means that God created with a particular purpose in mind, and when He was finished, He saw that His purpose was complete. Hence, God was pleased. He saw that it was good in His eyes.

To illustrate, let's say that you sat down to draw a tree. In your mind, you have a particular image of what a tree looks like. You then try to draw it on paper. If what you have drawn is exactly what you wanted it to be, then you would be very pleased with your drawing.

However, this statement was never said of humanity. God did not see that humanity was good or pleasing. Why? Because, the purpose God had for humanity was not yet complete. God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life. When that happened, then God would have found them to be pleasing. The choice was left up to them.

If you notice, God never told them about the other tree. He did not command them to eat from it. Instead, He wanted them to eat of it willingly. If God had told them the benefits of eating off this tree, then they would have eaten from it for the wrong reason. They would have sought the tree of life for benefits. If God would have commanded them, then they would be forced to eat from it. They would not be choosing to eat from it willfully, by their own choice.

For example, my wife never tells me to go out and buy her flowers. She loves flowers and wants them. But, she wants me to do this willingly. If she tells me, then she feels the whole moment is spoiled. She wants me to show my love willingly.

We know from John 17:3 that eternal life is knowledge of God. From the beginning, God desired an intimate relationship with us where we would be united as one in spirit to Him. That is what the tree of life represents. It is marriage to God. However, did we choose God? Did we willfully seek to know God in truth?

Instead, we ate from the tree of knowledge. We did not seek to know God intimately, we sought to develop a sense of righteousness apart from God.

Let us go back to the idea of righteousness and goodness. To be righteous is to be good. To be righteous or good means that we are pleasing in the eyes of God. This is expressed fully when Jesus was baptized in Matt 3:17 (KJ), "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The Father was saying, "This is my righteous and good son." Jesus would also later clarify in Matt 19:17 that only God is good.

What does this mean?

This means that righteousness and goodness are relative to the person who establishes what righteousness or goodness is. When we ate from the tree of knowledge, we established our own sense (or interpretation) of what righteousness and goodness are.

For example, you might eat a bowl of strawberry ice cream and say, "That is good" because you find it pleasing to you. Another person who is allergic to strawberries says, "that is bad" because they find it displeasing. Or...here is another example: a person might say that eating only vegetables is good because they find it pleasing to their own sense of good and evil. Another person, however, may say that eating only vegetables is bad because they find it displeasing to their own sense of good and evil.

However, as you and I know, it doesn't matter what humanity thinks is good or evil, because God says what is good and evil. If God says we should only eat vegetables, then only eating vegetables is good. Whatever is pleasing to God, not to ourselves, is what establishes righteousness.

The problem, of course, is that in eating of the tree of knowledge, our nature is to try and establish our own righteousness apart from God. We like to say, "This is right and this is wrong" based upon our own senses (feelings, thoughts, wisdom, perception)....rather than seeking God.

The Sabbath is a perfect example of this problem that Jesus had to address on several occasions. The Sabbath was commanded by God in the Ten Commandments. God made this law. Behind the command was God's intention and purpose. He had a reason for giving the law. When we read the law, we must interpret this intention. Some people take this law to be exact or precise. Under no conditions or circumstances are we to work on the Sabbath. In this, they take a literalist interpretation, and thus, rely on their own understanding. They do not seek God's will in the matter. They don't seek to know God or His purpose behind the law. Instead, they take the law at face value so that they manipulate it for their own end. This becomes apparent when Jesus faced this situation.

Mark 2:27-28 (NIV) Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Notice what Jesus says. The Sabbath was made for man. The law was made for man. The law was created to serve man, not rule man. Instead, God (who is called Lord) is to rule man. We were created for God, not for the law. This means that the law cannot make us righteous. The law is subject to our own understanding of it. However, God is not. God is Lord.

The problem is that we want to make ourselves righteous based upon own idea of what righteousness is. Man wants to tell God what is righteous. Man uses the law to His own advantage to tell God, "Hey, I obeyed the law, so now I am righteous." But God gave us the law to show us that we are not God.

To be good or righteous is to be god. Only God is good. The whole point is to prove to man that we are not God. Instead, we are separated from God. We cannot be righteous, because we cannot be godly apart from God. We need to be united as one with God so that God Himself is our righteousness.

Let's rewind for a moment back to the garden. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they didn't just disobey God. They made a choice to be separated from God. They chose to do things their way. The temptation was that Eve would be like God meaning that she would be independent. She could decide for herself what was right or wrong. She wouldn't have to obey God or do things His way. She could be her own person with her own ideas.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from God. They fell from glory as Paul says in the Romans. To fall from glory means they were changed. They became something that God did not recognize.

When God created Adam and Eve, He had a particular purpose for them. He wanted them to be a particular way. However, Adam and Eve chose to be something else. They were created in the image of God. After they sinned, they no longer resembled the image of God. Adam and Eve were glorious creatures, unashamed. Afterward, they saw they were naked. They were naked because God's glory no longer clothed them. They fell from glory. They were separated from God.

They had become nothing but dust. From dust we were created and to dust we returned.

This means that anyone born from Adam and Eve is born in this same condition. We are born as a fallen creature. We are born displeasing to God. We do not look anything like what God had intended for us to be.

It would be the same as if you set your heart on making beautiful earthen pottery. Let us say you began by making a wonderful bowl. It was striking and very pleasing. The only thing left was to fire it in the kiln. However, inside the kiln, the bowl cracked and broke apart. Your intention was that the bowl would be gloriously beautiful. However, the bowl became a useless lump of clay.

When you understand this condition, you begin to see that we are hopeless. Not only have we been born into sin, but we sin adding sin upon sin. Yes, we are born in state of sin. On top of this, we continue to disobey, adding sin upon sin. We can never be righteous. We cannot please God. No way, no how.

We need to be born again. We need to be transformed. On top of this, we need God Himself to be righteousness for us because we have no righteousness of our own.

When you understand all this, then and only then, will you ever fully appreciate Jesus Christ. I am not righteous and never will be. I am nothing but dust. However, because Christ is united as one with me, because of Him, I am glorious. I am pleasing to God. I am righteous because Christ who is righteous is my husband.

No man can reveal this to you. This truth that I have just presented can only be revealed to a person by God Himself. I could write pages upon pages and you would never understand. I pray, therefore, the Lord would reveal this to you. May Christ impart this to you so that you may see yourself in true light.

In Christ,
Blake

*edit: added this...*

Romans 7:18 (NAS)
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."


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Blake Kidney

 2007/4/24 11:18Profile





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