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 In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

In Romans 3 it speaks of man's sinful nature, this spoken of a specific group of men, as a result of, in Chapter 1, he-man didn't want to retain God in his thinking: Romans 1:21 (KJV) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This would indicate that man, before "as it is written", knew God and obeyed Him, howbeit in varying degrees.

So my question is where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.

 2007/4/23 9:11
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
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 Re: In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

Genesis 6:4-8 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


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Phillip

 2007/4/23 9:26Profile









 Re: In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

Quote:
So my question is where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.



I think that is the idea behind moral depravity.

Know one (or so I think), not even Paul, is saying that man (in his fallen state) has this desire to obey God, but cannot find the strength to obey. Fallen man chooses to reject God, because he is corrupt and condemned in Adam.

As Paul states, we were all enemies of God. Children of disobedience. Condemned under the law, not because we loved God's law and could not obey it, but because we knew God's law (in come capacity) and chose not to obey it.


We were all in need of a righteousness that was not our own. Perfect obedience.

 2007/4/23 10:18









 Re:

Quote:
Know one (or so I think), not even Paul, is saying that man (in his fallen state) has this desire to obey God, but cannot find the strength to obey.



But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.
Quote:
Fallen man chooses to reject God, becasue he is corrupt and condemned in Adam.


That's too broad a statement to make, don't you think? Not all "fallen men" made that decision. Some came to Him and still come to Him

Quote:
As Paul states, we were all enemies of God. Children of disobedience. Condemned under the law, not because we loved God's law and could not obey it, but because we knew God's law (in come capacity) and chose not to obey it.



I believe your last says it all.

 2007/4/23 10:35









 Re:

Quote:
But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.



I believe, Romans 1, when Paul is talking about men knowing God, he is talking about man seeing God in creation, being able to know that there is a God in creation and yet still rejecting Him.

There is a revelation of God in creation. Not of Christ, but of the fact that there is a creator, and yet even with that revelation men (all men) do not glorify Him.

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I think you are correct. According to the scripture, man did bring total depravity upon himself. Adam disobeyed God and through his disobedience, sin and death came upon all men.

Quote:
That's too broad a statement to make, don't you think? Not all "fallen men" made that decision. Some came to Him and still come to Him



According to Jesus, the only reason anyone comes to God is if God himself draws them.

As Wesley states;

"Tis mercy all immense and free and oh my God it found out me"



 2007/4/23 10:54









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Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.



I believe, Romans 1, when Paul is talking about men knowing God, he is talking about man seeing God in creation, being able to know that there is a God in creation and yet still rejecting Him

There is a revelation of God in creation. Not of Christ, but of the fact that there is a creator, and yet even with that revelation men (all men) do not glorify Him.


Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few?


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Quote:
I think you are correct. According to the scripture, man did bring total depravity upon himself. Adam disobeyed God and through his disobedience, sin and death came upon all men.



Indeed, Sin did but not man's sin's he commits of his own freewill, for which he is responsible for.

Quote:
According to Jesus, the only reason anyone comes to God is if God himself draws them.



Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?




 2007/4/23 11:28









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Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few?




Please explain?

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Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?




Please explain? How is that taken out of context?

 2007/4/23 12:49









 Re:

You have your questions in reverse order.

Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few?

Obviously these men weren't depraved or unrighteous. Therefore, all men weren't.

Having to do with God drawing men to Jesus:

Quote:
Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?


Please explain? How is that taken out of context?


Very simply, Jesus said: "I am the way, truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me". So which is it? And is Jesus speaking of the issue of man's depravity, redemption or becoming a son; becoming intimate with the Father per John 17?

John 6:43-45 (ASV) 6: Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.


John 14:3-11 (ASV) 14: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go, ye know the way. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.



 2007/4/23 13:11









 Re:

Quote:
Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few



Where do you find that these men were not, at one time, unrighteous.

The scriptures that Paul uses to declare that,
"there is none righteous, no not one, come from the Old Testament. He is quoting the Old Testament when he makes that conclusion.

Then he explains how Abraham, an unrighteous man, became righteous. By faith in a promise.


Again, where do you find that those men were not, at one time, unrighteous.


 2007/4/23 13:47









 Re:

Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few


Where do you find that these men were not, at one time, unrighteous.


In light of how they are presented us and their association with God, why would you presume to believe they were ever unrighteous?
Quote:
The scriptures that Paul uses to declare that,
"there is none righteous, no not one, come from the Old Testament. He is quoting the Old Testament when he makes that conclusion.


To be specific, he is quoting David from Ps.14 and 53 and David was speaking of the condition of the people who once knew God but had fallen into a most corrupt disposition that eventually forced God to send them all into exile.
Having explained that to you, where does it say those who Paul or David speak of could not return to God had they chosen to do so? After all, that is what God was desiring of them.
Quote:
Then he explains how Abraham, an unrighteous man, became righteous. By faith in a promise.


You use only Abraham as your example. Who told you Abraham was unrighteous? Where is it written that he was? Where does say that Abraham believed God simply and only because of a promise made to him?
Quote:
Again, where do you find that those men were not, at one time, unrighteous.


Speak of where they were and lets not presume on what is NOT written. Lets let the Bible say what says, ok?


 2007/4/23 14:41





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