| On Gog and Magog...|
Is the war called Gog/Magog the kickoff of the Tribulation, that brings the Anti-Christ to power, or the lead in war to Armageggon?
Reason I ask is because Amos seems to be describing what is now setting up in the Middle East. All of Amos, so I won't quote him. And Amos appears to be describing getting the Palestinians and friends out of the way of more Jews going to their homeland. And there is Oil and Natural Gas in Israel now, to be taken for a prey....
| 2007/4/22 5:23||Profile|
| Re: On Gog and Magog...|
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The battle happens after the 1,000 years has ended.
| 2007/4/23 15:14||Profile|
| Re: On Gog and Magog...|
King James in one of his written works (can't remember which one) states that "Gog and Magog interpreted simply means 'hidden' and 'revealed'".
Being a king and all, I suppose he'd know what he was talking about - some armies in plain view, some hidden.
| 2007/4/23 16:32|
| Re: Gog & Magog|
Jay, (and anyone else who is familiar with the Gog/Magog prophecies)
I know there is another Gog/Magog battle, because Amos is full of it, and it seems to be related to getting space in Israel for the Jews to come home, which seems odd for the Post Millenial Battle you quote. Do you know of any other scriptures that might relate to the timing of the last Chapter of Amos in relation to the 1st & 2nd Chapters, for it seems to match up with what is going on now, or at least an end time similar to now.
1. The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.
2. And he said, The Lord will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.
3. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Damascus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have threshed Gilead with threshing instruments of iron:
4. But I will send a fire into the house of Hazael, which shall devour the palaces of Benhadad.
5. I will break also the bar of Damascus, and cut off the inhabitant from the plain of Aven, and him that holdeth the sceptre from the house of Eden: and the people of Syria shall go into captivity unto Kir, saith the Lord.
6. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom:
7. But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:
8. And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish, saith the Lord God.
9. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant:
10. But I will send a fire on the wall of Tyrus, which shall devour the palaces thereof.
11. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
12. But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
13. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:
14. But I will kindle a fire in the wall of Rabbah, and it shall devour the palaces thereof, with shouting in the day of battle, with a tempest in the day of the whirlwind:
15. And their king shall go into captivity, he and his princes together, saith the Lord.[/color]
1. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
2. But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:
3. And I will cut off the judge from the midst thereof, and will slay all the princes thereof with him, saith the Lord.
4. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the Lord, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
5. But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
6. Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
7. That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
8. And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.[/color]
1. Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2. You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.[/color]
The interim verses have been fulfilled in the dispersion of Israel, and the captivity of Judah in Babylon. But then the tenor changes, and seems to change subjects.
1. Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
2. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
3. And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
4. Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
5. Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
6. That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?
7. The Lord hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8. Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10. And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
14. They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy God, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
1. I saw the Lord standing upon the altar:[/color]
When does the Lord stand on the Altar, except he be fighting for Israel, yet Michael leads the fighting except against the Anti-Christ.
[color=993300]and he said, [u]Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.
2. Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
3. And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:
4. And though they go into captivity before their enemies,[u]thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
5. And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
6. It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: the Lord is his name.[/u]
7. Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
8. Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
9. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. [/color]
This seems to speak of the remnant of Jacob.
[color=993300] 10. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.[/color]
In Edom is Petra, and right next to it is Bosrah, where the remnant of the Jews are protected by God through the 2nd half of the Tribulation. Israel is rebuilt, and God fights for israel.
[color=993300] 13. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine,
14. And I will bring again (from) the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
[u] 15. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.[/color]
This is a very difficult dual prophecy, yet the lack of the Word not being there for the thirsty in Israel is an endtimes reference, for after the Millenium, everyone will have had the Word directly from Jesus aw their King, until God lets the Devil out again for a bit to test all the believers.
This is why I am looking for additional referances that might specify when this Gog/Magog fight shall ensue, for all the countries around Israel are named as they are now.
| 2007/4/24 7:01||Profile|
I don't understand. Why do you link Amos with Gog and Magog?
| 2007/4/24 11:36||Profile|
I don't understand the connection between Amos and Gog and Magog either. The prophecies of Amos in their original context have to do with the northern kingdom of Israel in the 8th century B.C. Amos comes along and speaks to a nation full of luxury that loves religion (including idolatry), and speaks on how the Assyrians will soon bring about destruction on the land. The only part of the book that really deals specifically with anything beyond this time period are the latter parts of the 9th and last chapter.
The opening chapters of Amos have to do with the destruction of nations surrounding the land of Israel at the time, as the prophecies make clear.
| 2007/4/24 11:45||Profile|
The prophecies of Amos in their original context have to do with the northern kingdom of Israel in the 8th century B.C.
Sure. But that doesn't negate the fact that the entire Bible is prophecy and that it interprets itself. "There's nothing new under the Sun." Everything that's happened before, will happen again. Thus, Amos' prophecy is relevent for his immediate future and for the far future because it's the Word of God and, thusly, is always in force when applicable.
When John the Divine heard the Angel say, "Babylon is fallen" he wasn't talking about ancient Babylon, nor was he talking about the physical location of modern Iraq. He was speaking about a nation LIKE Babylon, with a spirit LIKE Babylon, that would rise up far in the future.
This means that the most powerful, haughty, arrogant nation of that time, and the time to come, will get her comeuppance - the poorer nations will become tired of carrying her debts and living in squalor while she lives like a queen - and her land, buildings and wealth will be taken by force (and sometimes, without hand) in payment for that debt and her people will be sold into slavery. And she will burn.
"Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them: And though they go into captivity before their enemies,[u]thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good." (AMOS 9:2-4)
"And it shall come to pass that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake." (ISAIAH 24:18)
"Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down." (OBADIAH v.4)
| 2007/4/24 16:00|
Everything that's happened before, will happen again.
I understand there is a "pattern" nature to Bible prophecy. Thus, we can see one passage fulfilled multiple times. And no doubt, many parts of Amos can be applied to future situations beyond the prophet's originally intended context. However with that said, there are no prophecies in Amos speaking specifically to Gog and Magog.
| 2007/4/24 16:31||Profile|
...there are no prophecies in Amos speaking specifically to Gog and Magog.
Maybe he read Amos differently than we have - some have a different gift of "interpretation" than others. I do wish he'd revisit this thread and expound his ideas.
I'll pm him.
| 2007/4/25 2:52|
| Re: The prophecies in Amos|
Sorry, Guys - Took a break, and read some Classics - very restful.
Corey H. - Thanks for the p.m.
In regard to Amos, and Ezekiel 29, the dual prophecy there has a similar ending
In looking at the entire book of Amos, check out the place names in all the 'Woe To's', and then look at Ezekial, and it's dual prophecies regarding Tyre, the nations that trade with her, and the end result in Israel. Tyre was taken down by Nebuchadnezzar, but the Prince of Tyre flourishes yet in Israel's enemies. Nor has the Lord taken up sword to ensure Israel's eventual victory, yet God does this in two specific situations of supernatural behavior, Gog/Magog which is a territorial war that leads to a lot of room for Israel to spread out in, and Armageddon, that brings the Remnant of Jacob into the Millenium.
Also please keep in mind that the Prince of Tyre in these prophecies is Lucifer, while the King is a man. Ezekial 26:6-19.
I am looking at the linkage between the place names in these prophecies, and others, and the references to Lucifer here and there, attempting to track them in other books to locate the exact circumstances of God/Magog, which has been grieviously ignored until recently by the leading escatologists. Now that Israel is surrounded by her enemies, the possibility for the initial Gog/Mag alliance to attempt invasion of Israel is all primed and ready to go, awaiting the appropriate timing by God.
Not being an escatologist by trade, I am digging into the Bible to see all the background of the end times.
19. For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
20. When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
21. I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.
1. The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2. Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus;
3. And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord God; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.
4. Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.
5. They have made all thy ship boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee.
6. Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory, brought out of the isles of Chittim.
7. Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.
8. The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise men, O Tyrus, that were in thee, were thy pilots.
9. The ancients of Gebal and the wise men thereof were in thee thy calkers: all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in thee to occupy thy merchandise.
10. They of Persia and of Lud and of Phut were in thine army, thy men of war: they hanged the shield and helmet in thee; they set forth thy comeliness.
11. The men of Arvad with thine army were upon thy walls round about, and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round about; they have made thy beauty perfect.
12. Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.
13. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market.
14. They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules.
15. The men of Dedan were thy merchants; many isles were the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee for a present horns of ivory and ebony.
16. Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate.
17. Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm.
18. Damascus was thy merchant in the multitude of the wares of thy making, for the multitude of all riches; in the wine of Helbon, and white wool.
19. Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market.
20. Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots.
21. Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these were they thy merchants.
22. The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.
23. Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.
24. These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise.
25. The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
26. Thy rowers have brought thee into great waters: the east wind hath broken thee in the midst of the seas.
27. Thy riches, and thy fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners, and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the occupiers of thy merchandise, and all thy men of war, that are in thee, and in all thy company which is in the midst of thee, shall fall into the midst of the seas in the day of thy ruin.
28. The suburbs shall shake at the sound of the cry of thy pilots.
29. And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;
30. And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:
31. And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing.
32. And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?
33. When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.
34. In the time when thou shalt be broken by the seas in the depths of the waters thy merchandise and all thy company in the midst of thee shall fall.
35. All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance.
36. The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.
1. The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3. Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4. With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5. By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7. Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10. Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
11. Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12. Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the Beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
20. Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
21. Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,
22. And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
23. For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the Lord.
24. And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord God.
25. Thus saith the Lord God; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26. And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God.[/color]
Unfortunately, seperating out what is Gog/Magog from Armaggeddon is quite difficult, and I could use the help.
Ezekial 29 seems to end the same way that Amos does, but then again, not really.
| 2007/4/27 1:57||Profile|