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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

ADisciple,


"No, they were not sinless; they were merely circumspect to offer what the law prescribed for a sin offering. And in doing so they were then "blameless" as far as the righteousness of the law was concerned, as far as what the Law said was the right thing to do."


I was thinking this was what might have been meant by their being blameless also. But I think when we see something like that, [b]blameless[/b], we think sinless, in the same sense of when we wonder if it is possible to [b]keep the commandments[/b], we may be thinking sinless also. Know what I mean?


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/17 17:25Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Chris,
Yes, I think that is the correct view. Paul, Zechariah, other zealous men, were "blameless" as far as the Law went because they kept the provisions of the Law for those who broke the Law.

However, the righteousness of the Law had no (and still has no) power to make a man truly righteous by very nature. This is why Paul in Phillipians called all his "credits" no more than "dung, that I might win Christ, and be found in Him not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

AD


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Allan Halton

 2007/4/17 18:30Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: no doubt many more than 613 laws

Quote:
… the righteousness of the Law had no (and still has no) power to make a man truly righteous by very nature.


This is why those who live by the law must keep on adding more laws - to control the symptoms of unrighteousness that keep popping up.

Provost, check to see if these people have other laws: ex church policy manuals, dress codes, behavior codes, music rules, church attendance rules, a host of guidelines for this and that, including unwritten codes(rules everyone just assumes) – maybe unspoken codes that they are not even aware of: ex: never get angry, always smile, always be nice, never question the pastor, don’t buy newspapers on Sundays, etc…

How do they deal with the stoning laws of the Torah, or the eye-for-an eye law? How do they treat law-breakers?

Living by law leaves no room for mercy, forgiveness, or tolerance towards those who experience faiures, brokenness, etc. So law-abiders don’t tend to notice when they violate the law of love – like when they are harsh towards one another or condemning. Provost, do you notice that among the posters? Those are “aha” signs of the failure of the law. The law can’t change the heart.

Diane


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Diane

 2007/4/17 21:22Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Diane,


"This is why those who live by the law must keep on adding more laws - to control the symptoms of unrighteousness that keep popping up."


Reminded me of Romans 7:8



[i]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence... [/i]


The RSV has it this way


"But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead."


The Simple English puts it


"Sin took the chance to use the command to make me want all kinds of things which didn't belong to me, because without law, sin is dead."




Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/17 21:47Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:


Prov. 13:6 Righteousness guards him whose way is blameless,
But wickedness overthrows the sinner.

There were many who were blameless, who lived during the time where the covenant of Mount Sinai was in place.


Psa. 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.

Who are these that are undefiled?

Psalm 51

16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

What is David talking about here?

Jer. 6:20 For what purpose to Me
Comes frankincense from Sheba,
And sweet cane from a far country?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable,
Nor your sacrifices sweet to Me.”

In comparing what David said and now what is written on Jeremiah above, what is the difference?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/18 1:15Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: the fuitility of laws

Quote:
what is the difference?



Before we will ask this question we have to realize that there is, in fact, a difference.

The recent shooting in a Virginia college of 31+ students blatantly exposes the futility of man’s reliance on laws. I noticed that a teacher, a holocaust survivor himself was murdered on Holocaust Memorial Day - trying to protect his students. This begs the question: Is there something that we are to remember this day? I believe that it is humanity’s total inability to keep itself from turning barbaric, no matter how many laws are added in order to prevent “this” (whatever that may be) from ever happening again.

And yet, our society never "gets it". Just watch now and see how many MORE laws will be added to the already thousands of legal laws. However, the laws will merely restrict all of us yet some more. They restrict us from being free to love God and mankind as God has called us to. And they won’t change the hearts and consciences, that is, fix what's been broken. They won’t prevent the formation of future “gun-men”.

Our society has no plans to be broken and contrite. And yet, that is the only path towards a new and clean conscience: through the forgiveness of Christ, and the application of his love in our society. iT is not about 613 laws. But sadly so many Christians are paralyzed by their obsession with laws, while missing the greatest commandment entirely.


We as followers of Christ have something wonderful to offer, and it may cost us our lives, just like it did for that professor who was shot.

However, offering 613 laws (or any number) to the folk on the street, in our churches, to our friends and relatives is as calloused as offering a truckload of sand to a thirsty person.

Diane




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Diane

 2007/4/18 7:59Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Provost, check to see if these people have other laws: ex church policy manuals, dress codes, behavior codes, music rules, church attendance rules, a host of guidelines for this and that, including unwritten codes(rules everyone just assumes) – maybe unspoken codes that they are not even aware of: ex: never get angry, always smile, always be nice, never question the pastor, don’t buy newspapers on Sundays, etc…


How do they deal with the stoning laws of the Torah, or the eye-for-an eye law? How do they treat law-breakers? --quoted from Diane

First off they are obiously very legalistic. Also there was not reply when I brought up the stoning issue. I brought it up numerous times...no response. Also the main talker went on the rant about how only Christians that are "close to Gods heart" follow the law, the others may be saved but they are living in disobedience. And the Holy Spirit told him this and said do that...very subjective cult language.


Here was my last post(I am since taking a vacation from that forum :-) )
Hey Troy and the rest of you accursed dogs

Galatians 5:3I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.


Read Verses 3 and 4
Now start stoning apostates or you are condemned! Troy you said you don't stone people anymore...you are knowingly practicing sin and you are accursed

Philippians 3:2Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--

You are dogs and evildoers condemned by your own words.

Hebrews 10:1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities

Again all you have is a shadow. A shadow will not save you. I know you are saying that you are being obedient that you are saved by faith. But your words are justifying where your faith is. Your faith is in your works, and what you are doing. If your faith is not lying solely in Christ woe is you!

I would ask that you stop posting on this site. You are obviously Cult-driven (the first sign of a cult is an "us" verses "them" mentality, and you accursed evildoers definitely have that) idol worshipers who need to repent, let go of your shadow, and gaze upon the realities of Christ who fulfilled the Law. By the way when something is fulfilled what does that mean? Like when a prophecy is fulfilled what does that mean? That it took place, it's finished, done, no longer a mystery but a completed revelation! So if Jesus fulfilled the Law we are done with the practicing of the Law. IF we still have to follow the law then we are waiting for a greater than Christ.

God bless all

Peace sermon index crew and God Bless

 2007/4/18 8:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I think it is right to say that because of man's sinful nature, being under the spirit of disobedience (Eph 2), John 3:3 is the only solution to man's problem. God has implemented many ways of keeping man's sinfulness hemmed in and under some restraint. These were never 'solutions' they were only temporary expedients. This is why we see the word 'until' concerning the Law. God did a lot of things 'until' the next step in His plan was to play out.

He started by multiplying pain in childbearing. This may not mean much now, but it was a serious issue before the advent of modern pain management.

Man was working with a 'cursed' ground. That is, the earth was placed in a state of [i]inutility[/i]. It did not yield like it used to and had to be worked and cultivated and kept in a way that was labor intensive. "In the sweat of thy face...," etc. This forced man to redeem the time for mere survival.

Yet we find in Genesis 6 that it was not long and still the thoughts of man became only evil continually. This is wickedness without mixture. What was causing this? No doubt it was man's sin nature. Sin had entered (Romans 5) and made man by nature children of wrath (Eph 2). That nature could only be restrained until Pentecost.

So the earth was filled with violence and the people corrupted their way upon the earth. At this point God implemented the death penalty for murder.

Wickedness unloaded again in the hearts of men and they sought to build a Tower to heaven. Nothing shall be restrained that they have imagined to do. God made man upright but they sought out many inventions. They were spiritually dead (EPh 2) and could only be hemmed in and managed. So God counfounded the languages. This has largely been undone today and we have seen a great increase in the proliferation of evil. The Internet is greatly responsible for undoing what God did at Babel.

Then from God's right hand there went forth a firey Law unto a people planted in the earth to be a light to those who lived in wickedness. He gave that law because He loved the people. Again- it could only restrain evil and point the way to to Christ. It was a Spiritual law- but men are carnal and sold under Sin. Their carnal minds were at enmity with God and they could not be brought under the Law- though it was a Spiritual Law.

God sent prophets and judgments upon the people over and over to get them to reconsider their ways. Even Israel that were trusted with the Law ultimately failed to rightly represent God. But when the fulness of times were come God sent forth His Son born of a woman and under the Law.

At the Cross we find man's full capability unleashed. The furnaces of the Holocaust and the tragedy in VA Tech are but a sample of man unrestrained. In Luke 22 Jesus told the people- but this is your hour and the power of darkness. Infinite Good came face to face with unrestrained Evil and we see the greatest picture of what man is capable of. When given opportunity- they sought to kill God. This was Satan's ambition- to supplant God. Man tried to carry that out. The contrast between wickedness and goodness cannot be greater. Here was man expressing himself in his unrestrained evil and God in His unrivaled grace and mercy. Selah.

There were many teachers in Israel in John 3 that did not know why man needed to be born again. they saw man as essentially good and just needing to repent and come under the Law. But Jesus had a different diagnosis. Ye MUST be born again He said. Regeneration is what man needs. Man needs rid of the Spirit of disobedience and the heart of stone within. Man needs the Holy Spirit to come that he might be baptized into Christ that they might share in all the riches of Christ. He died to Sin and in Him we have been co-crucified with Him. He rose again in power and 'in' Him we share in that resurrection.

Indeed man needs more than 10 steps to freedom or A.A. or a host of other self-help programs. Man is shot through with depravity and need to be born from above. they need God working in them to will and do HIS good pleasure. They need a nature that longs to please God rather than be His enemy. This is regeneration. This is the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit that God has shed upon those who are in Christ. This is more than repentance and it is more than faith. It is responding rightly to God when He is drawing and surrendering ourselves to Him doing whatsoever He asks of us then- and from that point on.








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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/18 8:56Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Hi Preach,

Luke 1:6 for starters. The word in question is 'blameless'.



[url=http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&book=Luke&chapter=1&verse=6&endbook=Luke&endchapter=1&endverse=6&none=none&altsource=kjv&altbook=Luke&altchapter=1&altverse=6&altsources=&altbooks=&altchapters=&altverses=]In that verse blameless is describing 'how' they were walking. Walking is in the present tense.[/url] You can click that link to examine each word, just move your mouse over the word and it will tell you a short definition and the tense, case, ect. It also has the KJV to the right so you can compare.

I don't have any bible software on this computer to do any "heavy duty" studying. I have a few websites I've searched around on though. There are a whole group of words that are translated "blameless" and all of them are adverbs or adjectives that I found. Which means they are describing something else. You can always look at the verb to see in what manner or tense he/she was blameless.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/4/18 10:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
I think it is right to say that because of man's sinful nature, being under the spirit of disobedience (Eph 2), John 3:3 is the only solution to man's problem. God has implemented many ways of keeping man's sinfulness hemmed in and under some restraint. These were never 'solutions' they were only temporary expedients. This is why we see the word 'until' concerning the Law. God did a lot of things 'until' the next step in His plan was to play out.



This idea of sin nature and disobedience keeps coming up doesn't it...

Looking into what Pau is teaching in Ephesians 2...

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Here we see that all "walked" according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

What does it mean that man walks according to the spiritual influence of Satan?

Likewise we learn that others also "walked" blameless...

Luke 1:
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Now look to what Paul teaches about the remnant saved by grace and not of works...

Romans 11:

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Notice carefully Paul's point that those God saved by grace..."were those "who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

This sin nature we speak of seems to be centered on which spirit we follow.

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/19 2:41Profile





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